Watch the Webinar (2.5 hours) PDF

Watch the Webinar (2.5 hours) welcome everyone. So I have a few things to go through and then I will invite Leslie on. So first of all, my name is Marsha Stewart and you are in the grocery Stewart academy of behavior. We keep working on the name that I think we're going to be ditching the word of t...

Watch the Webinar (2.5 hours) welcome everyone. So I have a few things to go through and then I will invite Leslie on. So first of all, my name is Marsha Stewart and you are in the grocery Stewart academy of behavior. We keep working on the name that I think we're going to be ditching the word of training because mostly we have a much broader picture of what we do here. We empower animals and we work on ways that we can better care for them than training is such a actually a small portion of what we do uh in in working on nourishing that relationship. So I wanted to start off with a moment to be present. This is a little bit woo woo, but it's also really helpful. So this is alternate nostril breathing and what it does is it puts us into our bodies in a state where we can learn better, better learn the material. So please follow along. So basically you take your thumb and you close off one of your, your nostrils and you'll alternate breathing in and out through them. So cover the one and then you can just sort of rest on the forehead here. So in through one side and then out through the other and you're gonna go in again and out through the others. It's nice to pause at the top. So in and out. I'll do one more and out. And what that does is it puts your autonomic nervous system in a state of rest and digest in which we can take this information in from Leslie. Now while we're in this really calm state, I would like us to um just take a moment to take in the good. So recall something from today that didn't shock essentially. So it could be something wonderful um it could be something small or big. And so for example, a communication that you had in which you felt taken care of or appreciated um is a great example of that. So I'm actually gonna going to take in a moment of claire reminding me of a zoom link or resending that link and I felt very taken care of and so allowing that memory, whatever your good memory from today is to be experienced in your body and then specifically to try to remember it. And our hippocampus is uh well listen, when we say, hey, could you remember this? So actually either just saying, hey, I'd like to really remember that moment of being taken care of for example, or you can visualize it as some sort of like small gem that you're putting into your heart and allowing yourself to feel emotion as you do. It will will nourish it even more. So that's from a book called hard wiring happiness by rick Hansen if you wanted more resources on that. And we also have a whole class on how to human, which is free. So without further ado I'd like to welcome Leslie McDevitt. Leslie is the author of the internationally Popular Control Unleashed book. Uh and as well as Dvds and there's a puppy version if you haven't read that one yet. Her books have been translated into many languages and people all over the world have learned to use for science based and empowering methods to help companion performance and working dogs learn to function optimally without stress in very challenging environments unless he has also taught a clicker expo and is a consultant for the penn vet working dog center. Welcome Leslie. Hello? Hello. Yeah, I'm glad you're here. Okay, so today's women are basically it's the session, the session itself is recorded and it's going to be audio over power point, is that right? Yes. And you'll be sharing from your screen. And so do you have anything else to share with folks before we get going with that? Um No, I really appreciate that Claire explained about the audio because sometimes you know you just real life is happening and I wanted share that experience and if it's if it gets too crazy then there's a couple like in a shelter um where I just did I record a voiceover instead because it was too loud. But anyway, um I it is nice to have to kind of know what's the ambience situation for the dogs because you can see aware of that. Um That's true. Audio is tricky. Yeah, it is tricky for me. It's tricky for me. So I just like to, we 1 should know in terms of like barking that people should have like treats ready for their dogs. Is there any of that? Okay. No, it's it's pretty quiet and just in terms of people have issues with like uh echoing human voices or something like that, but there shouldn't be a lot of um noise that's gonna, you know, you know, upset a dog in here. Okay. We just did our last webinar was on noise phobia and so we're actually aware of noise got it. There's a couple, there's a couple of marks in in one of the videos um towards the end, towards the end. Okay, good stands for which is a reference to my look at that game comma, then enrichments. It is a counter conditioning procedure with an operating base. It provides a structure that blends decompression time in an enriched environment with more active counter conditioning. It is a flexible setup. It can be applied to a variety of situations and issues that we can go into from animals that are reactive or worried about seeing other animals too. A shelter dog socialization, all kinds of stuff. And it's a variation on the look at that game which has been covered extensively in my books over the years. And it's obviously not just for Diego's, as you can see my horse Bella is also a fan first let's talk a little bit about the look at that game, which is the foundation for latte. Look at that. It's a behavior chain where the animal indicates the presence of something in the environment to you with a behavior such as looking at that thing, flicking ear towards that thing and moving their eyes towards that thing and then back at you and focuses on you. So that's the chain orienting in some way to the thing and refocusing on you. It is a conversational style of training. My goal is for the dog to have a dialogue with you about the environment. Um, rather than a traditional Q. And response so that if you see something that your dog reacts to um rather than saying leave it, watch me, watch me. He'll pass the dog, watch it's your dog sees it and you say, oh you found another dog, Good job, you found it. I see it, thanks for letting me know. And that thing is turning into an environmental cue for the dog to point it out to you and get paid for being such a brilliant reporter. Uh, it turns triggers into queues to play the game and it normalizes seeing things in the environment. So what does that look like in the real world? So here's a video of um sage when he was a teenager not barking and lunging at joggers. And I can promise you that when we first went to this trail in the video, he was doing those things and I said, oh okay, we need to work on this. Um this is one of my um masterpieces of video where I, you know, with my phone out and record something in the heat of the moment and it's all topsy turvy. Yes, that is upon on turk's um and crazy, but I like that kind of video. It's not, it's not beautifully made, but it shows you what's happening with my own dog where I walk in real time. So you'll see in this video that mostly he is reading the situation, noticing the joggers and turning back to me, but occasionally I'm asking him where they are. That is my look at that game, he wears the whatever. Um it's good to have both available to you both the concept of environmental cues for your dog, but also a verbal cue to just to have it in your toolbox. Yeah, this is sage eating and not for food. Job done. So you can towards you because you can go back to your boy. Yes. At least you know, he wouldn't even be able to treat nervous girl. Where is the jogger guy? Yes, so it was another john on the right, let's get out of this. Yes. Alright. Just less than he knows. Oh, you are. So yeah, that's right. We go to this guy. Okay, 20 years again. Oh yeah, just sort of, I'm sorry baby. It's weird to try to focus. What do this 1? He was being secretly not even good boy. Oh yes, bless her heart break. Tell the truth few weeks ago, we want you, I could maybe get him to eat out here with chicken rights? And he's just eating his own beautiful work. Mhm. Okay. Another real life example. Um, the people that you will see in the various videos here are all control relations structures that have been certified by me. 2 This is Sarah. Um, she's filming her dog keeper and her son kai Noah. Um kinda is on the autism spectrum. He has some vocalizations and movements that keeper needed to learn to feel comfortable with. Um, so this is keeper just offering that behavior chain. Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mm hmm. Yes. Okay, 86. Yes. Thanks. Mm hmm. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Keeper says the kids right over there. Mom. Uh it doesn't have to be a looking behavior. It's called the look at that game. But I should have called it the show me game or something like that. Because dogs can use any behavior they choose. It's an indication behavior using their ears, eyes, head. Um, sometimes they just even look at you really closely and you know that they know the other thing is there any of that counts. The only thing I don't want, I don't want them taking steps towards the thing. There's not interaction with the thing during this game. This game is about the dog talking to you about what's happening in the environment and you will see in the next slide how we start teaching that concept. So this is an ear tip. Mm hmm. Where's the cat? Okay. Okay. Where's the cat? Where's the cat? Mm hmm, mm hmm. Where's the cat? Mm hmm. Some dogs can choose what kind of indication and it doesn't have to be the same, you know, with with each wrap that can change it up. How do we get there? Um two ways. I'm gonna show you how to teach it and then you can use this chain of behaviors for latte as well. The first way um Kimberly is gonna show you how to teach it with a neutral object. We present the object. We click when the dog orients to the object notices it. We place the object behind our back and then feed from the opposite hand. So I want the dog looking one direction towards the object and then in the opposite direction towards your hand with a treat. So they're getting that heads turned built in from the beginning. Um once they're doing that, you can leave the object out rather than putting it behind your back and the dog can note it and turn back to you. Um then you can get it out of your hands. You can put it on a table anywhere just as long as the dog doesn't get up and try to touch it. Um And then you can add your queue when you're ready. The cue that I use these days is where where is the whatever it is they hear where and they know it means they're going to be showing me where something is. Mhm Okay. Mhm. Mhm. Okay. Shit thanks. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Sure. Mhm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Where's the mug? Good girl. Where is the most? Okay, where's the muck? Mm hmm. Where's them up? Where's the month? Where's the mug? Where's the mug? Where's the kitty? Okay, where's the kitty? Mm hmm. Mr kelly. Okay. Make sure that you click, you know, the more subtle behaviors like the ear of some people just wait to see a big chunk of behavior that whole neck and head turn around and really look at a thing before they click and you don't have to, you can click any indication the dog knows the things there. Another way you can teach it is the fourth step of mat work. So the first step of network is teaching a stationing behavior on a mat. You know, teach, go to place and lie down or sit. Um the second part that you're gonna see here is associating the helper being at a target with treats. So just a classical association here that when the helper walks to the target, they stop there and the dog eats as long as they're there. If they leave the treats, stop. Third step, wait for operate behavior. So the dog is going to start looking towards the helper and then back to you like when they come up to that spot. I get a treat, Are they coming? So the fourth step is just that it's going to happen organically and you can put it on cue, you know that they're going to look towards the helper. So you start asking them where the helper is. Mr mccollum, You stay there. What? I asked. My daughter does have a tail. If you're wondering, It's very small. Come back. You can always use the tree from that. Mm hmm. 3 Yeah. So okay, step to walk up. I'm leaving towards you. Yeah. Yes. And then he gets to the truth. What do it again, Come towards? Yeah, yes, look towards you and welcome. Yes, good morning. And now I'm gonna add his cue. So yes, good job you start walking. I'm gonna say, what are you standing in the book? Yes, you go back. Yeah, it's the honey. Where is she? Yes, it's giving me a big head movement. If you want to be a serious geek about this, uh you can make teaching, look at that into a voluntary procedure. You can wait for the animal to look towards the helper before they walked to the target. That way the animal's behavior of orienting towards the helper is going to control the approach. So content is going to demonstrate that I like this video because the first rep is messy, but then you really see it, click another pun. Looks towards my son, My son walks up trying to send my son away chops the food looks when someone walks up, he eats. My son walks away. Some walks up gates. It looks like books. Hmm. Um Lots of people use look at that game and now also for their horses. I used it because my horse resource guards too with other horses that stick their heads over the fence. If I'm with her because I have treats. She, she used to get angry, pin her ears snap. Um so now you can see I don't need any, I don't need any management or anything. I can, I can be with her at liberty in her field. Well, I have traits and I'm working with our and other horses are doing things like this. Mm hmm. You got something for me. You got something for me. What about now? You got something for me now. Mm hmm. What about now? Oh, yawning has been a big thing with my formerly agonist IQ Mayor Belloch. She has a yawn que. It's really helped her become the quiet, easy to handle. A horse that she now is. So she is going to orient the buttercup. I click that but you won't hear it because I have a soft tongue quick for her. I'm going to step in front to feed then I'm going to step to the side in a very specific place and give her some scratches and that is her. Yawn que. Okay. Mhm. Good for you on, stand to the side, audience buttercup step in front feed, you want to second side works, moving forward. No. Okay and that's just how hers looks. Um It doesn't have to look that way and your horse can turn their head to the side to look towards you, particularly if you're feeding from saddle. Um I just chose to do it this way where I step in front, so what should you choose? Well let's say you're look at that when your goal is for your dog to focus on you and being a working mode, you just look at that. It's excellent for that when your goal is for your dog to just sniff and be a dog rather than being in a focused on you mode, you can use latte, you can get the counter conditioning benefit without that focus piece. Um Don't use either if your goal was to interact with someone rather than interacting with you as in a look at that or interacting with an enriched environment as in a latte because these procedures aren't meant for interacting with the thing itself. However, I am going to have one for you in a few minutes that will let you set up a situation where the dog can interact. So I want my dog to learn to just sniff the grass in the park without having to move past or away from something that is your latte. So here's the steps to latte, you're going to set up what I called a decompression loop. Um just a big circle with enrichment stations every few feet there is an example of an enrichment station, Isabella's puzzle toys, she's got some grain in it and I like to put some hay in it and around it too. It's a great horse in Richmond station, encourages grazing in the head down position, helper is going to be seated at an appropriate distance from the loop. Alright, And the dog always decides these things. The dog needs to be kept under a threshold point where they're not in any way stressed about this. So whatever distance that is, is what it is, um bring the dog into the space, stop before you get to that first enrichment station and you can engage your dog's readiness to continue by giving the look at 4 that queue. If the dog can orient to the helper, look quickly back at you and eat calmly and happily, then they're ready to begin. So you work the loop, you started the station farthest away from the helper and you load it with treats that might be, you know, a treat from a squeeze tube onto a look a mat for the dog to lick, it might be a bunch of little tiny shorted cheeses or kibbles for the dog to sniff around and find um when the dog Orients to the helper market, just like you would market during regular look at that and then when they turn back to you, take them to the next station. If they don't orient to the helper and they just look at you fine, take them to the next station. That's fine too. Don't q the behavior Shane for look at that while you're in the loop, just respond if the dog happens to offer it, if he isn't offering it and you just really want him to uh, you can ask the helper to change positions or make a sound move a little closer, do something to become a little bit more interesting before you start, make sure your dog understands, look at that. Make sure that all your management is in place. Whatever you need, leashes, barriers, whatever. Make sure that you've set up a working space with lots of room to move around. Uh lots of space for the dog to leave if they want to and lots of enrichment opportunities. And again, the enrichment could be looking mats, kong's slow feeders, snuffle mats, cardboard boxes. Hey, whatever you got. So here is an example of latte with human Dave and dog Dave. Human Dave is not sitting quietly and the chair, human Davis walking around, bouncing a ball. That is okay for dog Dave. Doug Dave is not wearing a leash and that is also okay. Um, when you set up each situation for your dog, you're gonna make sure that you set your conditions so that the dog can be successful. Okay, bounce it. Yes. What's that? Yes. What's the ball? Yes, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, squeeze some stuff and you're looking at, yeah. Now if you wanted to work with the bouncing ball, but your dog needed it to be broken into steps, think about what you could do and that goes for anything that you need to break into steps. Um, it could start with Dave just sitting and holding the ball, it could start with it. Then he stands with the ball and then he, you know, takes steps just holding the ball and then he could pass the ball in between his hands maybe. Um, then he could bend down and place the ball on the ground, pick it up, make a pattern of that. Then take a step, bend down on the bend down and place the ball on the ground, pick it up, take a step. Um, you know, and when he's ready to bounce it, he could bounce it just tiny bits, you know, before the full fledged bounce. However many steps you need is what you need. Here's your pop quiz. Is this a latte or look at that situation. This is a dutch shepherd I was working with who was a canine patrol and detection dog in training. He needed to be able to walk through this campus with handwork focus and not market civilians. Um, as he had been doing. So seize the bicycle, turns back, it seems that dude turns back so you just keep going. That's a perfect look at that now flat. Or look at that. This dog needs to practice being chilled around her mom's ponies. Boom. Yes. This dog has a long line arm. That is the distance at which she can stay calm and eat around the ponies. Mhm. It's great that you're staying in one place for a while to get all the treats. That's just what we want. We want you to be bored while you're waiting for your dog to stop sniffing the ground. Mm hmm. It's up close to the next one thing. If your dog doesn't know, look at that. That is okay. We can take the L. A. T. Out of your class and decaffeinated for you. What's the difference with decaf? There's no history of using environmental cues for attention. The dog doesn't have a history of behavior chain where he can or into something and turn back to you. 5 Therefore, if he notices the helper, reload the station he's at. So he Orients towards the helper and he's gonna look down expecting his food. Um and if he looks at you just like you're gonna take him to the next station. So that could look like this. Um I like this little video because you can see that stages looking up, he's looking towards the helper and then he looks down at the looking back like you put things here now. Okay. Yeah. Mhm put it there now. Thank you. So you can use decaf for socialization whereas you can't use look at that or latte for it because they shouldn't be interacting with the helper during those procedures. But they can if it's decaf great for shy puppies, great for shelter dogs that are unsure about new people, new volunteers that they have to interact with. Any dog that has to get used to working with a variety of people for whatever reason, you know from from show dogs too dogs that have to have a lot of medical procedures done movie set dogs, you know any dog that needs to switch handlers, shelter dogs that need to get used to people and then you can transfer that same structure onto who's going to adopt them. So if you want your dog to choose to sniff or interact with the helper, you can have the helper gradually move closer to the stations until they're close enough that the dog can sniff them while the dog is engaging in the station. So basically you can make the helper just another enrichment station within the loop. Um How much interaction from the helper is going to depend on the dog. You know if the dog likes to be spoken to or looked at or padded versus no don't do those things or versus break them into baby steps. You know, like don't look at the dog and say hi you know or look at the dog but don't speak like figure out what do you need to do to split this up, but basically just sit there, do nothing and with them interact. Um So this is my four. That's an arbitrary number four or more loop procedure for socialization. If you want to introduce another person that might be working with a dog in some way. So first you're going to do the loop while the helper sits at a distance, then you're gonna have to help our shadow you. So they're walking around the loop with you. Then you can do a loop where the helper is, the one scattering the treats instead of you. And then if you want, you can fade yourself out and let the helper do the loop by themselves and that could look different for each dog. There's lots of different ways you can make that into smaller steps. So here is doing the loophole. The helper is at a distance. Um This is baby baby tsunami who gets very excited to see my daughter wants to jump up and biting her hair so she is going to use this to get used to my daughter and be calm around her so that they can interact tip. I used my kids t shirt there as a station so that my daughters smell was there before actually interacting with my daughter is available. Tamara's got a nice loose leash when tsunami looks up it tomorrow she goes to the next thing, there's my kid. So now you're ready to have the helper shadow you. Mhm. Mhm. Just stand up straight. Thank you starter box. Good job, Danny. Okay, go to the other. There you go. Good job. We'll do one more jenny. Good. She bent down and touched the dog, which is okay for that puppy. Okay, so now here's the loop where my daughter Danae is scattering the treats instead of tomorrow. A tip. The dog could look at the helper or at their person in order to keep going to the next station. It doesn't really Matter which one. if your goal is for the dog to focus more on you around new people, then you would um shape more towards looking at you. If your goal is for the dog to learn to work and interact with the helper, especially without you being there. Um You can gradually shape the dog to look towards the helper to keep going. Mhm. Okay. Don't accidentally touch the box with your foot though. It's just going to look at somebody. Good. Okay, go put more. Just wait Danny. Just wait, honey. Yeah. Wait, just wait, wait hard to 6 look at one of you. Good job, Danny. Good. Sure. Yeah, I think you can give them a little track. Oh now Danny had to bend down to put the treats into that little cat bed. So if I had been thinking I would have set up the interceding arrangement so that Danny had access to enrichment stations where she could just stand and drop treats and not have to bend all the way over like that. It didn't matter with tsunami, but it might matter for a dog that you were working with. So think about two things um when it's time for the helper to start feeding the treats one, make sure that the station is the kind of station where the helper doesn't have to like bend all the way down, stick treats inside it right away. You might want to work up to that. Um to make sure that it treats the helper can just you know like drop scatter rather than you know something like a peanut butter or whatever that you have to like smoosh onto something because that would involve a lot more bending down and you know, being closer to the dog again, it depends on your doggy. So now if you wanted your dog to learn to be handled by different people, you could feed yourself out of the picture. Um So tomorrow is sitting in a chair in the middle of the loop. She's not completely gone, but she's in the middle. She's not, you know, doing the loop itself. And Danny is going to continue doing the loop and feeding the dog. Um work in a safe and closed space. The dog can leave and return. It will if the dog does lead the helper then when the dog returns. Um I would have the person get up and walk around with the helper again, return to a previous step. Or if he's done, he's done. Um Also tsunami is off leash. If the dog needs to get used to having the help or walk him on a lead, you can do a loop where you're feeding. But the helper has the lead and then walk with the helper as they have the lead and the treats and then fade yourself. So you will see in this one that tsunami decides to um take a little walk. Mm hmm. Doing good job, waiting Danny. Good job. Just wait. Don't, don't move. Just wait. Okay, great. Now go to the next one. I love the Sonoma looks at tomorrow and then back to the look of that. Mhm Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, mm hmm. Hi. Mhm. I'm gonna take a little while. You know what I mean? Good here. Why don't you go over to the box and put treats in it? You don't have to power. Just what treats in it. Okay, well, you know what? If this happened in real life, I would just, if we were in an enclosed safe space, I would just wait for her to come back. Mhm. So that is another strategy. You could just start loading the stations without the dog being there. You could just walk around to the Richmond stations and keep scattering things and maybe the dog goes, what is she doing? She's doing that without me. I'm gonna go check. So that's, you know, that's another option that you could try. Mhm. So if you want to encourage interaction with the helper, just integrate them on into the loop. So I've put danni's chair right in between two stations. Uh, tsunami can choose to sniffer or interact. She goes around her loop. Obviously each dog has their own needs in terms of distance, in terms of the helpers behavior. Um, if the helper is looking at them, talking to them moving etcetera. So if the dogs have issues with any of those things, you need to break them all down into tiny pieces. That is the art of training, right, adjusting for your individual earner. Um, so tsunami walked past Danny to the next station instead of looking at tomorrow, which is great. Um, we changed some criteria, right? We put Danny into that loop like that. Um, so you don't have to keep your old criteria of the puppy looking at her person in order to go to the next station. Um, the puppy looking or taking herself rather to the next station is fine too, wow, Danny. If she says you don't pet her or anything, just sit still. Okay, keep cutting your head out of the picture. Sorry, you're the headless tomorrow. We all do not, no party yet. Nice, mm hmm. Mhm. So, uh more tips. Again, always work sub threshold. Always let your dog control the pace of this, Right? This is such a flexible, um, easy 7 structure for the dog to take over if you needed have help or drop treats rather than bending down just, you know, be aware of the helpers, posture and body language and behavior, Right? Um, find the best anti seating arrangement for the individual as with all training, especially any kind of counter conditioning work. Um, distance behavior barriers, even the amount of enrichment stations you can start with just times right next to each other and, and then, you know, space them out and any environmental factors like just noise, um, anything that might be affecting your dog. So here are some real life experiments at mainline rescue. That is a satellite of the pennsylvania S. P. C. A. On a gorgeous property. This is lucky. Um, he's only been there for a couple of days. Like most of the dogs there. He is heartworm positive. Came up from the south. He is a sweetheart. He's been pulling hard jumping on volunteers And since many of the volunteers, there are seniors, um, dogs with those behaviors don't get walked nearly as much. He figured this game out immediately and I was thinking about how to use it to help the practice loose leash walking in between the stations. So I had to um, delete the audio and narrate over it for you because of all the crazy background noise and all that stuff. Um, so I wish you could hear what the volunteers were saying sometimes it was hilarious but I'm just giving her some instructions. I'm using the I'm doing the food myself since he doesn't mind people and she just has the leash and I'm telling her about how to walk the loop. He picked it up right away. He's a relational kind of fellow. So he was looking right at her quickly on his own. I wish I could have taken him home myself. So one thing I told her is that when he's walking nicely in between stations um she can make her loop bigger. She can put more distance in between them until he can walk that whole field. Alright so that is lucky I'm a good boy. This is boots. He's been there for more than 100 days. He's also a heartworm positive. He resource guards food in the kennel so we can start working with that behavior. Using um decaf outside where he doesn't have any history of that and then generalize it to inside later an adjustment that we made for him is that we just put one treat at the station rather than scattering a bunch because the longer he's at one station, the more chance he has of starting to guard it. Um So he eats one treat and moves on. That is the adjustment the volunteers came up with. They felt would work for him and would be safe. Um He is not bitten anybody there but he does put his mouth on them. So that's what they wanted to avoid obviously. Um the other adjustment for him because he was so environmentally focused. Um is that we did not have a volunteer wait for him to engage her in anyway. I just wanted her to get him moving and a kind of a circle and getting the idea for him that a treat gets put at the stations and we can add um that awareness piece of you know him engaging with her to make this loop happen later. So this is his first try this and yes, if they pick up a look at matt or something just let them. So she just put one treat down. She stayed away from the treat, she doesn't have her hand near him and he is looking towards her. So that's some great behavior you can build on he's gonna come check us out. He's not one of the dogs that are scared of people. So he came to see what we were doing like that he can get food from people and then totally novel situation here that has sort of a puzzle for him too to solve and think about. And I like that we're putting people into his enrichment activities. So it's not just interaction in the kennel or being outside in the field and that is me talking, she really don't need to see. So our next on here is Lola. She is fearful and avoids people mostly, But she's comfortable with two of the volunteers. So those are the two that you will see working with her. She's a leash 8 polar. She loves her food. So that's terrific adjustments we made for Lola. She needed two people to do this and I wasn't going to be the second person yet because she needed to just start with people she was comfortable with. So one of her volunteers was scattered in the treats while the other one I was holding her leash. You'll see her at first just with the one guy trying to do everything by himself and that did not work out. Um So we changed it up for them and you will see that. Well in the next in the next video of her you'll see how how calm she got and how confident She became about about doing this. Um it took her exactly a minute and 45 seconds of kind of running around and sniffing things and needing to people and then something clicked and she went, I think I get this. Um and everybody was like super proud of her and excited. So she's kind of sniffing around. I would like to give this volunteer like some some separate time to talk about least skills and you know the more more mechanical stuff but you know, you do what you can with the time that you have. So she's just gonna walk around and check things out and she's going to go see the other volunteer that she's comfortable with. We were all standing behind that volunteer and she wasn't, you know, running away from us or anything. So that was very brave. She wanted to see where the other food was. So I sent the second volunteer to be part of this team now. And I do like that idea if the dog is good with two people to have one delivering the food and one using the leash. Mm hmm. Mhm. Trying to get a bit of cheese at the bottom of the box. And the shelter did have a bunch of boxes. So that was a a great Uh huh A great way to start this. Alright. So she starts to get into the hang of things. I'll show you her next video, but you can't hear everybody cheering her on, which is too bad. I'll cheer her on for them. She looks I don't know why he throws the tree instead of placing it, but that's okay. It's working for her. She looks up goes to the next spot. She's starting to become very operate. She's very pointedly looking up at him to continue now throwing the treat ahead causes sort of poll. So if I went back there, I would work with him on his treatment placement. She's also noticing that strange guy walking past looked back at her volunteer. So we were all proud of that too. She looks towards us because we were talking to people that she doesn't. No. And then she looked back and wanted to keep sniffing around her boxes. She saw us. Okay, mm hmm. It's the beginnings of the great team there. So the last one that I have for you is Petey, the spicy chihuahua. Um, he's been snarling at the volunteers. Only one person can walk him. He's recovering from knee surgery and he can only go for very short distances. Um, so this is some nice enrichment for him. And the adjustment that we made for him is we made a smaller loop. The stations are closer together. He can't go very far anyway. And he's just getting to know. Um, the second volunteer. So the one with the leash is the one that he likes. Um, and he's getting used to the second one. She was putting more boxes in his loop and she was standing there watching him. And he was doing really well with that. So, um, they were happy and thinking that that was a good way to start introducing people to him. So here's p significant as boxes. I'm telling his volunteer that she doesn't even have to walk between stations. She can just sit there and be in the middle of it. And they're saying stuff like Petey is being so good because he's usually really snarky. She's just gonna stay in there now. The other volunteer. Mhm. So this is like a totally new thing for these dogs. They have some habits. They have some habitual behaviors when they see volunteers in the kennel. Um This is a very sort of novel situation with something that they haven't done before, 9 so you can kind of reintroduce things into it. One of the dogs, I think it was boots um doesn't like to have his collar put on. So we were talking about ways you could make um interacting with the collar, one of these stations and the decompression loops. So once you have this system you can maybe start putting other things into it. And I I really started thinking about that while I was watching these dogs at the shelter. So this is one of my certified instructors. This is an application she did in her classroom. It's a transition from having a barrier up. The barrier is down, but the space um is still marked by having the stations in this loop. So even though the barrier is down, um the space has a structure and it's clear where the dog is going to go. Um This could also be used for parallel exploration. So the helper dog was being walked around, but um the helper dog or another class dog could also be doing a loop nearby as long as you have the right management. So no one guards or tries to share a station. Um You could use this for lots of different reasons. So here's this, she's just gonna look up and go to the next one. I like this for puppy kindergarten type classes to that puppies could kind of calmly um pay attention and and walk on a loose leash too little stations and do things near each other without you know, excited play. You know, if they're working on interacting with their people and their other puppies, this is like a good fun, simple and well pressure waited to start that concept of, you know, you can do training stuff in puppy class even if there are other puppies near you. So here's an example of how you could blend some latte or decaf with Greece's behavioral adjustment training. So these videos are of a trainer named jenny Murphy, awesome trainer that is both a certified control relations structure and they survived that instructor and she sent me a video of a dog that she was doing an assessment for before starting any bat work. So she's just assessing this dog and he was being, you know, reactive and very concerned about stuff going on. Um and so she decided to kind of warm them up, transition him into the assessment using the decaf set up and it worked nicely for him and that he was able to do his assessment and start his bat. So um I'm going to show you sort of before and after here here good boy, just a bit, arc your space this way, okay seeing oh there you handled that nice, okay, wait now, just one second alright, intervene intervene slide up there you go okay and here is what he looks like, just slightly answering, I don't care if he sees daily because he's been barking at people today as well okay okay, so if he looks toward the trigger helper then you're going to stay here and I'm not getting more food on him, okay if he sort of looks up at you, raises his head and even acknowledges then I'm gonna move to the next one now if you look at me, I'm gonna move as well okay because I'm gonna give her a few but you can put some of your food right in there. Yeah yeah yes, okay new objects, thank you okay yeah and as long as you want want to students thank you, yep, yep I think so, yes, mm hmm see how he looked up, that was gonna stay here mhm All right, this is all on his time to get your reading and watching okay that's alright, that's alright, they've accepted me or you then you can look back at it mm hmm more and more to the next one, hold of that, that's really nice staying yeah, everybody knows hey mm hmm mhm thank you okay yes yes yes, but something good happens okay okay more treats mm hmm okay so you still got a little bit of barking but the anxiety was way down because there was a structure here that he was working with. And if he kept barking you could increased distance, You could have the helper. Um go out of sight and just let the dog explore the decompression loop and then bring them back once he kind of settled down. So there's different, you know, it's always flexible, there's different ways that you could do this so you can also decaffeinated your horse. Uh This is an example of a basic setup that gender 10 Gotti put, she put little grain pans around the cones there. Um She used this to help dragon sort of get that relaxed focus that he needed for successful work section, helps them acclimate to the working space and establishes a connection to her before she rides him. So she's gonna welcome to the bins. Mhm. And of course this is a great one for horses because it encourages their head lowering and they're grazing behaviors. He looks right at her, she texted me the next one. I used this the other day because there was a new guy riding a big lawnmower thing at the farm where Bella lives, She was noticing him and then going back down to um Grays, that was great. Once you move on from look at that or latte, your decaf if your dog is offering default behavior or context specific behavior, like any kind of performance behavior, Look I can do this trip. I don't have to keep telling you where that helper is. We both know it's there. I don't really care. Let's do something else. Look, I do this trick, it's so cute. You know, let them tell you they're ready to move on, then you move on. So to wrap up. Um Well, L A C and Latte and the captain gives you a powerful and portable framework empowers the dog to process the environment with confidence because they're doing it. They're doing it within a rule structure that they trust. Um It offers a paradigm shift from a more traditional Cuban response type training. Like you do this, you come over here and do that thing um to a more conversational model and in doing so it takes pressure off both you and the dog and you'll both love it. So thanks so much. Excellent. Well, thank you for that Leslie and we will take a five minute break everyone. So come back at 20 two minutes after 23 minutes after the hour. All right, welcome back everyone. So we'll go ahead and get started and Leslie if you want to come on as well. So we have so far about a dozen questions and we're happy to answer those. And basically the way we'll run this is that I'll ask less of the questions and then we'll check, chat back and forth a little bit about the answers and move on to the next ones. So let's see if you're around. If you could turn on your camera. It is saying, I cannot because you stopped it. Oh jeez, totally my fault. Alright. There we go. There you go. Boom. Alright, sort of look at a picture of sage than me anyway, but if you insist on seeing me here I am. Thank you for that. That was great. I really appreciate the new information. I love how conversational it is. That's that's a key evolution. Yeah, that's uh that's definitely my focus. Yeah. That that and using some kind of like request behavior from the dog to say do the next loop of something. So they're starting what the person does next, right? Yeah. That that that two sided conversation where the dog is able to say like pay more please or or let's do this. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um So paul says or wants to know if you have two dogs, one reactive and the other not. And the nonreactive dog doesn't lock and load on environmental stimuli. How do you treat unintended the nonreactive dog using this protocol? Mhm. I'm trying to think of a context where you would have both of them at the same time? Like are you handling both of the dogs because you're walking with like is what tell me more about the context before I think of a coherent response. Okay, cool. So yeah, paul go ahead and add and add on to that lisa says can we teach with a verbal marker as a clicker? Yeah, you can I actually prefer I do like a tongue click because I picked it up from the horse people and it's just um you know, you just want to use a sound that is pretty novel and just has like the one association, you know, if you want to use yes or something like that, it's it's it's fine. I like to have something just kept for like the one specific thing of marking the behavior, you know what I mean? But I'm never gonna you probably know this about me already. I'm never gonna say something is etched in stone and you have to do like this forever. Like wide from like being a science based evidence based trainer that's about like I'm not gonna say like you can't mark with this or that exactly the same here. 11 Alright, so Jessica wants to know during the initial stage of teaching. Look at that was the dog being clicked for looking at the object or for orienting back at the trainer subjects? Mm hmm. All right, lisa bates wants to know, I would love to I would love to understand how to look at the I look at that would work in a dog that was worried about an agility. Judge, would there be a delayed reinforcement? I. E wears the judge and reward out of the ring. Yes. So um I like that question and I know lisa and various people at trials have come up to me and told me how they use that within that context. Um So there's not like one protocol for it, but um if you've taught agility where you're reinforcing the current behavior with a cue to do the next behavior, okay? If you've if you've built a reinforcement system with the obstacles and the dog performs one obstacle and you're like do the next one right? All of agility should be part of your system of reinforcements. Um And if he does the obstacle and sees the judge and you're like you mark how you mark and then do your next agility q. Right away. Um Your you know, so when I talk about pattern games, I have different ones for like from moving for taking steps and the dogs that do look at that tend to to add it in. So if they're doing a movement pattern game where they look at you and that makes you take steps to a certain place or something like that, and then they see the helper and then they look at you and you're like great and you keep doing what you're doing. So you're you signed a contract to stay in a pattern because all pieces of the pattern are part of the reinforcement system, so you don't have to stop and feed your dog, you can't on a course. Um But you can act like you set it up for a look at that opportunity, you know, and you wanna you wanna practice. Um And probably you know, you have uh you know within class within matches, you know other people and dogs are always moving around in these situations so you want to make sure that the obstacles performances reinforcing and that if they see something and turn back you acknowledge it and you stay within your patterns movement because agility itself is just a it's not a pattern exactly because you don't know which thing you're gonna do next, so it's not like if I say a pattern game, the dog always knows exactly what they're gonna do next, but it's pattern e enough they know they're gonna do agility next. Alright. Um so that's that's one that's one thing and you know because this is sort of a chain of queues where they see something in turn back to you and you acknowledge it. Um I think that type of thing happens a lot. Um While you're just doing we're just doing agility right? So because any positively trained Q. Is itself a tertiary like third level reinforce. Er So that in itself is the treat right? So you you could either either mark or just give the cue and then that's the reinforcement for the look at that and one agility context where this happens a lot is actually the start line, the dog is being set up and there's dogs and people and stuff moving around behind the dog and a lot of dogs want to turn around and look and if a person has told the dog to sit and stay and and down like a lead out, moved away from the dog, the dog is pulled their balances pulled off because they wanted to turn around look and they might get up and those dogs can be corrected for that type of stuff, right? So if you want to set up a situation where they can sort of humanely process and feel like safe if you're gonna do a weed out or something, you know, you can practice a lot like a like a ritual like first I like to do like the dog does some behavior that says put my take my leash off because the first thing that happens when they get into the ring for you to sit up on the start line is you're going to remove their leash and then a leash runner is going to come and take it. Which that in itself is scary for some dogs I've worked with. So if they have some kind of start button type behavior like ahead lower or they sit and it means you're gonna take the leash off and then it means you're gonna take the leash off and hand it to somebody. 12 Like you can add a little steps right? Um And then you know, for some dogs they might be like, oh who's behind you and they're like oh it's that dog and you're like great, okay now you're gonna stay and I'm gonna lead out because the way that you've trained it, it's all part of the reinforcement system. Then they're like, oh no, it's behind me and you're you've gone away. You know what I'm saying? So it's like all part of kind of the conversation about what this ritual is in terms of setting up to run and stuff like that. Mm hmm. Right makes sense. And then by maintaining the conversation, you're also you're empowering the doug which are also noting that there there with you. So then whenever you release to the next thing, they're not gonna go. Exactly. Because people that have like a more traditional mindset are going to be like sit and stay and then they leave and they're not still talking to them about what happened behind the dog or maybe the dog suddenly sees the judge. You know what I mean? So it's like this way like there's always a flow. Even even if you want to turn your back and walk away, it's gonna be you can make it part of the flow. If you do this, I'm going to do this and then that's going to happen and after I've turned my back and walked away, I'm going to turn around and tell you to do that. You know what I mean? Like it's so nothing has to feel like um like it's not within the flow, right? So if the dog is you know anxious or unsure, it's like the more that you have this kind of flow, this kind of dialogue then the more they feel like, oh they know what they know what's happening. So even if something happens outside of the dialogue, like once this man I was standing with um my border collie easy and he was very young and this man in front of us like wait ready to go into the ring next we're waiting behind him started to growl at his dog, growl at his dog. Like we were like this, there was no social distance, right? And Easy is like what the you know? And I had to be like, oh ha ha has been a funny game, he's that growling idiot yup there he is hot because there's nothing to do, you know what I mean? So but once your dog has like certain tools and they can discuss weird shift in the environment with you, at least they have they have the tools, you know what I mean? Like that same trial, poor Easy who used to be afraid of kids Boy Scouts and no one told us this. All the volunteers at the trial were Boy Scouts, they were running around in uniform like little elves and they weren't picking up the leashes from the dogs with their hands, they had like um those sticks with like dinosaur heads, you know I mean? It was like a nightmare, It was a nightmare, you know, But but because he had, he was raised with this, you know, he had this under his Yeah, like even though like he had some sketchy things in his, in his temperament, but he was like, look, there's there's boy scouts with dinosaur faces and I'm like, yes, there are. You know, you can hear come as much as you can. Yeah, right. Yes, I've been in those. Alright, so Carly has a quick question she asked about tertiary reinforces. Carly, we actually do have something about that in the how strong is your foundation class? So, some of the the training skills for people. Alright, so lisa, let's see, did that. Alright, so Lauren wants to know how many reps before you move from an object in your hand to move it again onto a chair or other object. I mean it really, it depends on your but for how that dog is doing, if the dog is like barely looking at it and just looking at you, like I figured out, I know that it's there, it means that you go on to the next thing, you know what I mean? Because look, that was not it's not like a um it's not a socialization protocol, right? It's meant for things the 13 dog can't interact with. Um So that they can relate to you about things and you know, if you if you mark subtle behaviors, it ends up basically the dog is paying attention to you while their stuff's happening, right? So, so it's not the protocol to use for everything. It's protocol to use for when you want those specific skill sets in place. Um So if the dog is like, yeah, I know it's there and they're like paying attention to you and they're like, yeah, it's there quick. Then you go and yeah, and if they're staring at it, then maybe you didn't pick a neutral enough objects um or maybe you need to, you know, like if you're moving something, maybe you need to stop, like you need to kind of figure out whatever further away or you know, and like I've worked, I've done this with with dogs that have like um very like stocky predatory type behaviors towards like balls or something like that, and you want to help them kind of take it down a notch and be able to think around in the presence of one of these things. So it doesn't they don't necessarily have to be reactive to, they can just be stuck, you know? So you have to figure out like what distances can the ball be for them to be able to be like, yeah, it's there, you know? And then you have to figure out how much tiniest movement, you know, you can go from there, but it really helps them because they're being able to um come out of that what their instinct is and kind of shift to a different mode by showing you where it is versus staring at it. Um So I forgot the question, but there you go. That's okay, we can answer that. Alright, so cat wants to know, can you think of a way of applying look at that or latte with an entirely blind dog who spins when stressed, Who's spins when stressed. Was that? I think it I think she meant blind, it says bling. So maybe that's the thing in the, I think she meant black skunk the fancy collar. Um Yes, I know. Well in terms of look at that, it's not really about seeing something that's just about sensing a certain stimulus in the environment and then communicating about it. Um So a lot of people do like listen to that for dogs and um I haven't listened to Carolinas thing yet, but I'm like really looking forward to it. The noise phobia thing. Um Yeah, that's great. But a lot of people have used it for like the dog indicates the direction the sound came from. And I've even used that for barking to where was the barking? And they tell you about it and you're like, oh, good job you found it rather than being like, I heard barks, I must bark, you know? Um So so there's other ways you can use that kind of like conversation doesn't have to be about seeing something. So that's one part of the answer. Um In terms of spinning, I would want to know more about like what are the conditions that might set that off, what's it in response to and kind of you know fuss around with with different things, but once it's happening, if you don't, if you want to stop, I didn't give them like an alternative. Um then yeah, I think something like like the latte or decaf like they don't have to see to find the next station and once they've practiced they can know that the next station is coming. You know what I mean? Like um And so they can kind of like do it with you, They could do it by themselves. Um I saw in the chat, a few people brought up free work. And so I love free work. And the main differences with latte would be, it's it's operates right? So the dog is using a start biting type behavior to tell you to take them somewhere and put food somewhere. Um So there's an exploratory component, but that's one piece interactive. Right? Right. And so free work I think would come like for a dog that needed, that type of thing would come first. And then you could say, okay now we're gonna take a similar setup, but I'm going to insinuate a person into it if you want if you need that piece for whatever reason. Right? Um And so uh so that that's that's one thing. Um So I don't know if I answered the 14 question enough, I think I would want to sort of see that dog um or get more information and then I might have a more specific like, oh, I'll make up a game for that dog, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Well, that, yeah, that all makes sense. And we do have for folks with dogs who are either deaf or blind, we have a class already on deaf dogs and we have one growing up on blind dogs as well, so yeah, um one of my instructors, her name is Tiffany baker and she's been teaching about See you for deaf dogs specifically. Um and she is, she's been she's given a few talks on that and that's great. You said Tiffany baker, Tiffany baker and um I just saw because mike shea cassio put out his his um list of who's going to be doing his podcast for the next whatever she does, and she's going to do, she's going to talk about that, but yeah, just in terms of um what kind of markers that she uses and using patterns, um and stuff like that. So I wish that she was here and she could have given you a better answer. That's all right. It sounded great and I would double down on the ice free work idea for sure. And possibly also look at look at pain. So just in case there's something going on with the dog's body sometimes spinning can be over. Yeah, to check that out with the vents and we do have a workshop on paint. Alright? So carly says suggestions for Latte with two brother dogs reactive in a yard. Um Guardians with an invisible fence. Um Like so would the goal be that both dogs could be doing it at the same time eventually? Uh That is a good question. We'll put that. So I want to know that that version. Yeah. So the guardian breeds, that sounds like with an invisible fence. Okay, so sounds that interesting scenario. Yeah. I mean that sounds hard because the the conditions aren't set up to, you know um to make the learning eas easy and fast, right? So that might that might be a good um environment to start with the free work and see can they are they engaged with like sniffing, exploring, finding things, licking and chewing. Um Are they even engaged with that in that context? Because I don't know like what's their level of arousal been coming outside or they already like vigilant and waiting for something or are they just chill there until something happens. Um So I would want I would need again more information but as a general rule um if I'm gonna be doing things with like multiple dog household, I would like to teach each one individually and then put them together. Um So together, you mean like two handlers doing working them at the same time or one really depends like if there's any resource guarding or any any management issues then you have to do it that way. You just have, you don't, you know what I mean? Like you have to manage, you have to have enough space, you have to have enough people. There are some dogs that um someone sent me a video very cute of like two dogs doing like a decaf type thing and looking and then go in the next thing and they didn't care they were both there. So it just depends on what is happening, you know? Um But yeah and and it depends on what what resources do you have, how many people do have? Why are the dogs out there on the invisible, like are they out there in the invisible fence without supervision? Um Because then you have a lot less control over what they're going to learn. Like there's just there's lots of components here. Um Look at. So the short answer is I'm sure you could you could use these concepts that in order to really customize it. You need to, you know, figure out what, what can you work with here. What do you have to work with? Makes sense? And for those of you who might not know. So in terms of an invisible fence, they're married reasons why I'm not a huge fan of them. In fact they don't like them at all. Um But one is that the dogs have a hard time knowing if they're safe or not. So other dogs or people can come right through that space. Exactly. Plus there's stress at the threshold already because it's an aversive that's keeping them in. 15 So yeah, visible barrier is way healthier for dogs. Yeah. Alright. So Debbie wants to know when using a latte or decaf do you follow a pattern or is it random? The pattern is I like to set things out in circles and I like to do that because I love t touch and that seems like a T touchy approach, like a structured slow circular movement. Does it have to be? No, it could be in a straight line, it could be in a semicircle but but it's not it's not random, but um it could be. Um But that's not how I've chosen to set it up, even if it was random, the pattern would still be the dog made contact with you and it doesn't have to be eye contact. Just some kind of general orienting towards you and then you go to the next one and put a tree down. So if it was gonna be random, you could still do it that way. I like for the dog to know if it's counter conditioning work where they're going next, if it's a circle they're moving towards the hand. Where but once they I mean help her, but once they get to a certain spot, they know they're gonna move away from the helper, right? Because they're in a circular pattern. If it's a straight line within pattern games, they know when they get to the final station in that line they're gonna turn around and go back. So if you set up a pattern game where they're moving down a line because I like to have visual stations, they know where they're going and they're moving towards a helper, they know when they get to that last station, they're turning around and going the other way. So um there's so you could do it more randomly. But like I have reasons for coming and I'd like to know I like them to know where they're going and what's going to happen when they get there. It seems like the predictability might also help the clients stay calmer because they're just like we're just talking here. Yes. And actually that's that's a big piece of it too. Is that if they're like, oh my God, like they can think about, all I have to do is go walk one ft this way next. Yeah, makes sense. And it seems like also if the dogs um like if you had a circle right, some part of the circle is hard for the dogs in some parts easy, challenging. You could do like an arc. Yes, there. So eco distance to the trigger the whole time without fit this. You could you could absolutely do it like that. I mean yeah, I think as long as set it up how it's gonna be the least stress, you can always change it up if you want later. Um but I like them to know where they're going, where they're going to be going next, predictability and control are two big things, you know, as well as different that we can use to change fear. That's, that's, that's my intentions for this. Yeah. Alright. So Tima says why is the bend down? So threatening to some dogs, my big dog elicits head scratches for me. Was reactive to stranger bands even at a distance, he's super anxious and I went over to fix his least least. He was sometimes flattened to the ground. He was, oh yeah, history, I would say history or lack of, right? So it sounds like I learned. Um, So as to the why, but in terms of what we can do about it, right, we can work that into our training that they're like from a distance, you have people practicing like as if they were going to bend over, right? Right. Um, you could, the two things I would add is, um, when you do a lot of like, the person puts treats at stations and the dog knows that's what happens. The person can start bending down a little bit more, you know what I mean? Um, but the other thing is, um, some kind of like start button nerd consent kind of behavior to make it a game that if you do this, I go like this and then maybe that means I drop a treat like it should mean something specific and not be near the dog. Right. And then you can go in baby steps to the dog. Yeah. So you know, you can always put that spin on it and team a I think if you were to do more like what people, all of those are great suggestions. Uh, and I think if you were to do the marker that we use with deaf dogs, so just the hand flash, ah click that that would start to do some conditioning as well. That's great. 16 Yeah, that's right. Because hands don't have to mean what you think they met. Yeah. Alright. So Carly wants to know regarding heartworm positive dogs. So this is what she asked in the chat and I was like, I don't know, maybe there's a thing. Um do you have any suggestions for customizing their activities or is it just that was a, a piece of that. They were that particular shelter like specializes in the heartworm dogs. They take a lot of them from the south and like they just have it down. They've got their protocol. They do what they do. I haven't heard in terms of like, uh, you know, their exercise restrictions or something. I'm sure when they're at certain levels of treatment they need more rest. You know what I mean? Like? Um, but I don't, but I don't have any specific information about it though. Gotcha. Neither did I. So All right. Next question, Carrie, thank you. Kylie, next question from Kerry is how did you bring the loop inside the shelter with boots to continue to prevent resource guarding? Um, I didn't, I didn't do that. Um, but what we discussed, we discussed doing it and I know that they have continued to work, but I don't know if they've worked with Boots specifically. Um, the last time I did the clicker expo live thing, we did a live to that shelter and we did work with some of the dogs inside, but Boots wasn't there and hopefully that means he got adopted. I don't, I don't know. Um, but the best case scenario, we'll go for that, right? Um, the cool thing about using visual cues, right? Or stations is that you can move them and then even if you're in a different space, you're like, oh, you're in a different space. But look, there's a loop full of looking mats or boxes or whatever and you know, you know what happens when you see that? Um, so, uh, that shelter is like, it's well funded and it's freaking gorgeous and they have like, like a huge lecture room to give seminars in there and they've got another whole room that looks like a living room that the dogs go in every day and like hang out on the couch with you. Like, so, you know, we put, we put the boxes and everything in the living room area, you know, so you can practice doing it in their um but in terms of like transitioning from inside to outside, Um one thing you could do is put like a line of boxes through the door, so you started inside, you've got a groove going, you go through the door and then a couple of boxes in the direction of the kind of, without maybe being all the way up there to see what happens now, you're inside and you can see the kennel, you know what I mean? And if that's great, then you could add more, you know what I mean? It really depends on like, how the dog was going to do in terms of oh, I see boxes near the kennel, but and I'm okay with that now, like, because I don't know, like, what are the stronger cues person at kennel door versus she's in a box, you know what I mean? So, um but the thing is with these these protocols is they're very adjustable, you know? So did you ever have any issue with the dog starting to guard the boxes or like, the, you know, the visual cues, or was it really clear because the humans reaching toward, it meant more food was going to be there, that um Alright, so far, Yes. Um we have done this with some resource guarding dogs and it hasn't come to that, I think in part because it's novel, it's a different picture from what they're used to um There's a there's an element of agency immediately in it that they tell you to move and put one somewhere else. Um And so it just looks it looks different and they've got some control. So I haven't seen it happen. But obviously you would want to break things down into baby steps and be as safe as as possible. You know, with that situation, I can see how dogs a dog guarding may happen. I remember peanut would you have to be mindful training train would drop food. He's like this whole area is mine, right, right? You have to be you have to be really mindful about that. If you're if you're using a helper dog, then they should already have um you know, experience 17 practice, know what's going on, have space, have a barrier, you know? So it's not a thing with them. Like if my dog saw that set up, they'd be like all right. You know, I'll just I'll just sit here and wait for my turn for something and they just are waiting, right? But also maybe especially because it has that sort of start like a look at the human and then we can start it's like human my human didn't do anything. So I guess that's not mine and it's not my turn or something maybe. Yeah, I mean I also will set up parallel things. So it's like if I had two dogs, there would be two loops of things. Um, so yeah, you know, and I mean, if I set this up, like in my, at my place, you know, I'll bring my dog to my neighbors yards. So there'll be a fence in that dog's loop, you know? And maybe I'll bring them, I might do something like take the stations from a circle to like a curving towards the fence and then away if they're ready for that, you know what I mean? And then like ultimately building up to say, like parallel walking with the fence in between them, but they're going to stations, they're going the same direction of stations, they're getting nearer to each other and the fence is there and then maybe I'll even put stations so that they can like meet through the, you know what I mean? It depends on if that's, if that's safe, if that would even be beneficial to the dog, you know what I mean? If it's a dog that it would be nice if they were able to, I feel confident to sniff or interact versus that's not why we're doing this. You know, like there's all different levels of it. But yeah, you have to be, you're using food, you're putting food on the ground, you're putting food in things, so you have to know, you know, you have to know the dog to make sure that you can do all those things. Yeah, sure. Alright, so next question, Jessica wants to know many of the dogs, and the demos seems so calm in the presence of food. Any suggestions for dogs that get really aroused when food is involved? Um So in my puppy book, I wrote this thing, I think it was called the protocol for food arousal or something like that. But the first thing that I would do is um teach the breathing protocol. So you hold a treat um not like far enough away that the dog is air sensing it, but they're not like jumping and trying to take it and then watch for their little nostrils and they just go and then they can have it. So um I like that it becomes a very purposeful operating behavior that they start looking at you like, and then they can have it and that calms everybody down and you can make the cue that you looked at them and took a breath and then they copy you. So like, then that calms you down and so it's like take a breath and then eat, you know what I mean? So I like to do that, and then I really like to have, I always called it a default behavior, I think the more current word is like commanding. Um but a behavior that the dog knows they can do to make things happen for themselves, and it's really strong. So it should be stronger than like jumping or whatever, trying to take the food, they see it and they breathe and then they sit or whatever and then added to that if you, some people have like various cues that means like I'm bringing the food to you versus I'm going to throw the food versus, I'm going to put the food in a bowl, like Deb Deb jones has done some stuff with that. So it's like location specific markers or something like that. And I'm too lazy to, to teach much of that. But it is a very positive way to work on like a leave it type thing to be like, here's a cue that means I'm bringing you the food, there's no reason to get up and take it here It is. You know what I mean? So like nice specifics. Yeah. So if there's specific pieces of being fed that is arousing and you can figure out, you can just just make everything super clear. You're gonna offer your default, that makes me get food and then you're gonna breathe and then I'm going to tell you where the food's going. You know what I mean? So, so you know all 18 that kind of settles down. That's what I intend to do and Jessica. That would be a great thing to film. So you can really see like where does the arousal kickoff? Like is there something that you're doing the other dog is doing the, the way it's being brought to them, the type of food, any of those things that might might be causing more. Yeah. Alright, so Sandy wants important, like I think that's a really important skill that the dog should be able to eat without higher arousal because then you can you can, you know, use it in different ways um without adding to the arousal picture, making it harder for them to think or whatever, you know what I mean? Um So I think it's an important thing to skill to work on, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I know that particular dog has a very long list of things that caused high razzle. So um that's, it would be another good area to practice him? It would be great if food didn't because then you could reward right, lower arousal with food without, you know what I mean? So it would be great to start with the in fact it might be part of the reason why lots of other things are higher arousal is because food is so right and there's lots of things have been paired with food. Got it, you know? Alright, so Sandy wants to know, it seems that this is as effective for dogs who are excited and frustrated by things in the environment wanting to pull toward other dogs or people as it is for dogs who are fearful or worried. Is this correct? Yeah, I think so. I think the main parts are you have to set up for the individual dog in terms of the distance that they need what the helpers are doing. Um But then I think across the board it's kind of builds confidence calms you down to know what you're doing to have the predictability like you've said and to have some control to know I can do something that makes something happen and I know where I'm going next, you know, to have those pieces in play um you know, help with any anybody. Mhm. I just thought of sort of a renaming of of your work, which of course you don't need to take, but predictability and control unleashed like you're unleashing both of them? I love it. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Control, which was named by people at my club. Like they asked me to teach a class for the dogs that we're having to leave other performance classes, They weren't ready to be off leash or whatever. And someone named it that so I actually don't know what I would have called this, like I never had a chance to like think about it, you know? That's true. Thanks to the back story I had no. Alright, so Karen, let's to know is the decompression stations protocol and evolution of pattern games, or do you still recommend using games such as ping pong up down and 123. Yeah, no, which pattern you use depends on, like the context, there's patterns for being stationary, like you can't move anywhere, but you can do a predictable pattern, there's patterns for moving, you want to move past something, you whatever. Um So it depends on what, what's this context and what what can you do, what can you do in the moment? You know, a lot more decaf would be if you have the space to really kind of set up something where they're exploring and all that. And if you don't have like, some people ask me what if I just scatter food. So I like the stations because you can see where you're going, but if you don't have that shore, of course you could do that walk in a slow circle and scatter food every few feet and they look up at you or something. Um But it's it's not the specific patterns like one is better than another. It's just like patterns are helpful and it depends on what's happening in terms of what you're going to use and you can always make one up in the moment, like you know what I mean? Like is it just once you, you and the dog have that concept that like, oh there's patterns learning like I know what's gonna happen next, if I do this, then you can make up other stuff. So it's not like one replaces another, it's just like which look if you're waiting in line or you're at the vet or the dogs in the 19 car or something like that you do like and up down pattern because that's for if you want to give the dog something predictable to do, they look up, you put a treat down so that sets them to look up again. You know what I mean? Like you're not moving um 123 is a moving one where every you count up to three while you're walking and at three you always stop and have food. So they start listening to and counting and then you can add in a behavior that they do like looking up at you or if it's a horse maybe lowering their head and then that makes you go the next three. So um this cool thing um somebody in my horse group was um she was in a in a fire in Australia and one of the wildfires and her horse was really scared. But he knew he knew that game because it's a good one for horses to walk them past stuff they think is weird. She walked in like past the wildfire. She sent me a picture. Like she's got her, she's got her little bait bag and her clicker and her horse and there's just like flames everywhere. And she was like holy crap. Um So you know it just depends on where you are and what you what you need to be doing. Mm hmm. Um It's it's it's the predictability of it. That that helps. Alright. So um and Natalie wants to know with regard to the blind dog. I have a plan whose dog has no peripheral vision. He also cannot lift his face outward to look at the owner. He notices are the sound and lifts one front paw. I've implemented. I know I've implemented a ball finger, a finger balls finger which we queued. Pop. He turns to look for pop. And then he boots it and food comes down to him and we move on. Does that sound like a cross correctly? Yeah. That sounds amazing and adorable. Do that. Thank you Natalie. Alright. And then certainly back a little bit to the previous question of you know, when do I use? Which? Um And I don't know if if Yeah you've read my article and safe. The secure attachment family. And I saw graphics from it. Yeah. Gotcha. So yeah. So basically we're uh kind of the idea of of secure attachment. At least in this model is the there's like we're a secure base for exploration. We are like a base of safety. Like if there's something going on then we're we're I'll forget the word. But anyway they run back to us if they're scared. Um And then the oh and then there's attunement. So basically we're attuned to their needs. Like these are all kind of hitting those in different places. Much. And also like that is more of a free range where the dogs got for autonomy. And so like all of these really blend together nicely. and they would be used like for different, like they blend and one isn't, it's like I wouldn't use any of this to replace. It's like it's a different, it's for different um context, you know what I mean? So it's like it goes well together. Yeah, I love how yeah, you were really clear about like, well if we want them to really focus on us, that's where that comes in. If we want them to, that's what it does, then latte, right? And then like for me that would be more of that interaction. Sorry, I interrupted. No, I just, you know, I'm thinking it's coming out of my mouth. No, I'm just I'm just agreeing with you. Like Yeah, like um like some people they want to compare like look at that in fact, but they're like for completely different, The goals are different and it's just it's different. You know what I mean? And that is a whole system and look at that as one game within his system also. But it's like the goal that is like a folk a hand or focus for moving past things that you're not, you're just not going to interact with, you know, like it's not it's not meant to be comparable actually just because it rhymes, right? Exactly. You know, so useful. Like it's absolutely something I want. Like I was like how do I get through distractions when the dog is not capable of just like meandering through and being cool with it, right? It's just, you can have, 20 you can have that in your toolbox and it's like there are situations where you would choose one thing in the toolbox over another thing, it depends on what the environmental conditions are and what you, you know, what's happening and what or what you have control over or not, you know? Exactly. And kind of like we saw with the video with jenny, it's like she tried to do that in that space, the dog was was too aroused to be able to do any sort of just wandering, so, so Right, yeah, um yeah, I'm still just understood this thinking, but I think there's there's more room for like interesting overlap and stuff. Oh, I know what I was thinking, like, you know, if you're, if you're walking your dog gonna lose dog runs up, that's not a that's not a bat, right? So like now you're in survival mode and that's Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I would in my sort of like the paradigm of how we phrase things with that, like, these are survival skills, these are ways to sort of get through a lot, a lot is especially Latte is, is a nice bridge between survival skills and that sort of more free ranging version of that that we do. Yeah, because of that saying, right, Pavlov is always on your shoulder. So like, it's a survival skill, but while you're surviving, you're also maybe learning that certain things aren't that bad because when you see them, you see them within a structure that you feel good about. So it like, you know, it blends into that, right? Right. They can they can sort of get a more optimistic viewpoint from that as well, which then can have great effects in other areas. Right. Exactly. Alright, so we'll go back to the questions here. So Dorothy says um with artistic dogs, would you adjust Latte as they like routine? Yeah, would I adjust lattes as they like routine? So if you if you have a dog who really likes pattern and routine, then would you do kind of shifted into even more pattern or would you still do, I mean that has lots of routine and it seems I like pattern and routine and it's there, I don't think you need to do more of it, I think especially, and I'm coming at it from a place of of um of living with an anxiety disorder, right? So I think that the more you feel like you're in control of something and you know, what's happening next. Um and so the patterns are already set up, set up for that, you know, makes sense. Okay. And also I would add um some thinking of, you know, my little brain is working on, when else would I use latte? So I would use it as as a um parallel play activities, so the dogs sort of doing that. But I would be keeping that in mind. So for me if the dog wanted to wander off and start doing that, I would do that. That's yeah, would match with what you said is if the dog is like, let's offer, you know, different behavior than right. Um I would do that and then I would also if the client needed more structure, but certainly sometimes their clients are like, I don't want to just wander. This feels scary to me than doing a pattern, you know, to kind of get them into flo right, great way to teach the leash skills with this structure. Yeah. Um If if the client is worried or just like new, just new and not sure how to handle things. Um they like to have that. Okay, all you have to do Is count while you're walking and when you say three you have a tree, like you know what I mean? Like that's all you have to think about right now. Um and then they get, they build more confidence like that much like teaching a dog a nose touches is a nice way to sort of get like you just have to do the one thing. All right. Uh So Debbie says when the dog has worked on lattes, not in the training, not in the training phase, when the trigger is present, say a dog is approaching. Do we point it out to the dog with the Q word or do we wait for the dog to spot the trigger and then use the Q word. So I think in real life that happens really asked in the dog usually accused of the environment and turns to you and you're like, oh, you found a dog, Good job. 21 I do like to have the verbal cue because if the dogs learned it correctly, then you can use it to say something's coming and then the dog is ready to see that something is coming within like a calm operate state if you do it incorrectly and you teach them, this word means something is coming and then the dog is like, oh my God, something's coming, that's not what we wanted, right? But like if I'm walking my dogs and I see a dog coming, um not like a dog rushing at them or something, but just another adult where you know, it's going to be below threshold when they see. And I see it first, I'm like, hey, I see a dog, where is that dog? Because I just talk, you talk, you know, and they go, oh I see it or deer more likely when I'm walking them, I'm going to see the deer first because they're hiding in the trees on either side of the path, but they're, my dogs are going to notice them eventually, you know what I mean? So I tell them first, I'm like, hey, where are the deer? And they're like dear, oh, oh I found it, it takes it takes things down, you know what I mean? Um And you're, you're a little bit of a safe haven in that sense of like, oh yeah, mom's got it, she's seen it, she's already reacting. Especially cute. Yeah, because um rather than like you've got your dog and you're waiting for them to see something or something to happen and then they're going to have a response. If you're, if you've started a some kind of pattern or system of queues before they see it, then they're operating from that place and then it's easier to like integrate what they've seen into the place they're already operating from. So rather than like we're walking and we see a deer and I'm like look at that deer, it's like if I see it first and I'm like we're gonna be seeing a deer soon, where is it, are you going to find it? And they know what that means. Then they're operating within like this place where they have a task, they're gonna do it, they're gonna eat. So there within that sort of like more cooking treat mode, not like or a deer, you know what I mean? So it's like, so that's what I tell people teach a verbal cue because a lot of people teach look at that and then the dog sees things and turns back and then they don't teach a verbal cue, but you have this other um you have this other possibility for how you want to use it if you if you do that makes sense. And for those of you who have deer as kind of the one of the things you have to work on, we do have a whole webinar and actually a full course on predation substitute training with. So I saw yeah I didn't watch it. I saw you had it sounds really interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. And what I love is it so in Germany shock collars and correction collars are illegal and so the positive, like the whole dog trained community there has really worked on. Okay, well here are some of the things we need to fix because we walk in for us with deer so that the Germans are really good at predation with positive. Alright. So yeah, so just wants to I'm gonna add something because this thought came up while I was spewing other thoughts. Another place that a look at that queue can come in handy and this comes up a lot, which is why I wanted to mention it is the dogs that you're walking them and there's like corner where you can't see what's on the other side and then they exploded something um like when you're going around a blind corner or. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Right. So like so I'll do you know setups with helpers or whatever, everything under threshold. But if you make it like a game, like what, I wonder if we're gonna see anything behind this corner. Sometimes there's a helper, sometimes there's not a helper, but they just get paid for kind of checking out the corner for you and turning back to report what they saw and you're like, great, so you're just like reframing what happens when we go 22 around that space, because it already has like a conditioned emotional response is like, oh my God, a corner. And so, but you can reframe it like that and make it like, oh, that's great, I love that. Usually I just sort of peek around the corner myself first, but if you've got the dogs or preaching, expect, you know, you q hey, let's do the corner check for me, right? Yeah, like a service dog tasks are like, um like a PTSD dog type situation, they'll walk into the room first, you know, something like that. You can kind of, you can reframe it for yourself to like if you're someone that's worried about these corners because it's like, it seems like if you have a dog just reacted, you live somewhere where there's a million quarters, we started to get PTSD triggers from our dogs for sure. Remember when peanut, like before bat, but I remember I was, yeah, I was basically, I started becoming reactive to Children, like even when he wasn't there, I recognized my heart rate had gone up when a child walked in and I was like, you know? Alright, so jess wants to know, I apologize if you touched on this and I missed it. But this seems like it would also work with decreasing excitement around people that they like or want to get to, for example, gloves. My dad, Yes. Um So the bull mastiff puppy tsunami those videos with her and my daughter, That was because she likes my daughter too much. She um would jump on my daughter not, but this is how when she met my daughter, she she jumped on her and she knocked over and she ate her hair. She did so out of love. But my daughter was like crying. My daughter is one that will roll on the ground with puppies and she usually like um my friend fosters like rescued pregnant dogs and there's always puppies and my daughter goes there and just lies down and just puppies climb on her, you know? But she wasn't ready for the level of of tsunami Nous of tsunami. I like the name and she's a she's like a super friendly pro social dog, but just the arousal level was high. Um And so that yeah, and and she didn't do that at all walking around and then afterwards they were loose in the yard and she and she didn't do it. Um So it was just like that initial stuff got, you know, taking care of with this structure and everything. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. alright so I learned all I says, I learned D. M. T distract mark treat? And I'm just wondering if this is kind of the same or how is it different? Um I have heard that term but I don't know where it came from or what it is, I have the idea that it might have been based at some point on look at that. Um But I don't remember why I think that. Mhm. Yeah but I'm not trying to distract them, I'm I'm giving them away to report to me to be a reporter, the news reporter and tell me what's out there, you know what I mean? Right? So I'm not really trying to distract them. Gotcha. Yeah and it seems like I'm also not familiar so I'm just gonna guess um That that might be a sort of a survival skill in the extreme, like if the dog is way too close to do anything else that you're starting to come away quickly from situations. I really like that. Yeah, no I really like the survival skill thing. Um That's sometimes I think I've used the word management when I mean I mean when I mean what you're saying, you know? But but yeah um But distraction is a tool that you need to know how to use, you know? But but yeah it's more of a survival managing thing, so Carly says in addition to the where's the dog as a Q. Do you include what you might say to someone, do you include what you might say to someone you see on the trail such as this dog needs space and condition that phrase in the absence of people. Um Which I do actually, I just want to be sure the freight using the phrase regardless of the presence of a trigger does not distract from its usefulness. So if you say like the Q. But there isn't like routinely if you say the Q. And there isn't a person, is that a problem or something to look at? 23 I'm not sure why you would say it then like for practice for practices. Yeah, I would. So Carly, I would condition that in the presence of people, like if you wanted to be looked at that, then you need the at least something to look at. It doesn't necessarily people be a neutral object, it doesn't have to be a person, right? Exactly not neutral, it's a brain brain magnet. Alright. Um Let's see. So um but I do Carly, I do love teaching dogs. Uh you know, cues like, oh no, it means look at me or call your dog means to my dog, it's a recall cue. Um So yeah, that's great adding in if you have sort of a script that you're gonna use in certain contexts and it's like part of the sort of predictability of things then. So Yeah. Alright, so Dorothy says has talking to the dogs ever made them more anxious? No, but if you have a dog that um social stuff sounds um they get excited by it or something like that, then you just tone it down for that dog, you know what I mean? Like it's just work with what you've got, but I haven't seen a dog become like um worried because you're talking if it was a dog that had some kind of trauma and was afraid of people talking, but I haven't met that dog yet, I've met dogs that are get upset if you say the word sit or something specific works that they have baggage with but not just generally. Mhm. Speaking. Um but like say you're working with a shelter dog and every time you start talking they're like oh my god, you know what I mean? Because just any stimulus is too much stimulus and don't talk, you know what I mean? Like they can figure out a pattern with without, you know? Um So it really depends, but it's not like something I would worry about. Yeah, we're talking is definitely a discriminative stimulus that I've seen for some dogs, so it's like if you're talking to the other person specific kinds of talking. Yeah. God yes. Um Yes. In my puppy book, I wrote this game, I called it, like I forgot what I called it, but anyway it was about my dog learning that if other people came up to me and started talking like in class or at a dog show um that he could use that as a cue to offer me a behavior. Yeah. Um And I also taught him that if I was ignoring him that was a cue that he would get a treat because you know, I have A. D. H. D. I think it was called watch the distracted mommy or something when I wrote that um because you know like I have A. D. H. D. And it comes in the form of being hyper focused. If a student comes up to me and asked me a question, it's really hard for me to to switch from like that to like watch my own dog or whatever. And so I taught him that if I was talking to people and he oh like he would default sit probably and just watch me, Those were like just you know, strongly conditioned automatic behaviors eventually I would notice and give him a treat. So like duration just gets built in, right? So that becomes like an environmental cue, I'm not paying attention to you. Um So if you know specific contexts um if there's specific words that are already there, having an emotional response to then change the words, you know, and if there's specific context that are gonna happen, someone walks by on a trail or whatever it is then um you know, you can you can practice because the more that you sort of ritual eyes and interaction the last it's like I think in terms of like all these question marks, like a cartoon over your dog's head and the more you can like pop them. So there's no questions like I know what's going to happen because this has been scripted already, you know what I mean? Right? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah and a good balance is good, right? So it's not like you have this dog who's a robot who's like I always, you know this that's why we different different different tools for different times, right? There's uh you know, the hard hardest spots can often be really helped with um with patterns and then also then when they have the sort of space to learn, giving them the autonomy to figure out, okay, actually this is pretty cool and I'm safe, right? And then they can interact like Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's that's very important um to bring that up. 24 Yeah. I'm not saying like everything should be panicked at all times. I'm looking at dogs with like specific issues in specific contexts that can be made to feel better with it, you know what I mean? Yeah. Right. And one of the easiest ways to change a habit that somebody already has is to create a new habit, right? That's more functional in the in this, right? Right? And um doing the patterns can help build confidence and then they have um they have more dog spoons to then explore. And do more dog things to you know worried about entering a certain space. But they feel better about entering it within this structure. And then they can start sniffing around, you know what I mean? Right. Just like humans used for a party. Right? We go in this is the pattern, this is a routine I do. And then right now I can specialize and if I ever need to escape, I have this or you know that's you know, I read an article about that. I'm trying to think who is the author neuroscientist anyway that he was explaining how agency is super important for anxiety and knowing what to do. Exactly. And dog, it's not different at all. The dogs. No, were males. Alright. Mammal's. So Karen wants cute dogs. But yeah