Testimony of Dr. Rogers Part 1 of 2 (fixed audio) PDF

Testimony of Dr. Rogers Part 1 of 2 (fixed audio) Fri, Dec 06, 2024 9:56AM 11:53 **SUMMARY KEYWORDS** witnesses prepared, deposition test, Christopher Rogers, forensic medicine, George Garcia, blunt trauma, bladder inspection, no urine, unremarkable bladder, medical probability, high profile autopsies, autopsy process, visual check, intact bladder, recess taken Action Items ------------ More options - - - - - Add action item Insights -------- New insight Next steps - [The deposition was to continue after a recess, with another witness to be called at 1:30 PM.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=697s) - [The videotape of Dr. Rogers\' deposition was to resume after the other witness.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=699s) Next steps - [The deposition was to continue after a recess, with another witness to be called at 1:30 PM.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=697s) - [The videotape of Dr. Rogers\' deposition was to resume after the other witness.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=699s) Questions discussed - [Whether Dr. Rogers performed the autopsy of George Garcia on May 23, 2013.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=120s) - [Whether Dr. Rogers inspected George Garcia\'s bladder during the autopsy.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=178s) - [Whether there was any urine in George Garcia\'s bladder.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=185s) - [What was the condition of George Garcia\'s bladder.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=208s) - [Whether it was Dr. Rogers\' opinion that George Garcia\'s bladder was emptied prior to the trauma.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=244s) - [Where Dr. Rogers went to medical school.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=335s) - [How many autopsies Dr. Rogers has performed over the years.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=389s) - [Why Dr. Rogers is assigned high-profile autopsies.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=415s) - [How an autopsy is conducted, from when the body is received.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=462s) - [How the bladder is examined during an autopsy.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=540s) Timeline - [The only timeline mentioned was the autopsy date of George Garcia, which was May 23, 2013.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=148s) - [A recess was announced, with the deposition to continue at 1:30 PM.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=689s) Timeline - [The only timeline mentioned was the autopsy date of George Garcia, which was May 23, 2013.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=148s) - [A recess was announced, with the deposition to continue at 1:30 PM.](https://otter.ai/u/kyap1nHxvw5KhM0-S64llmvjKKU?utm_term=1113693&utm_medium=tracking_link&utm_source=affiliate&utm_content=Partnermatic&irclickid=VLqVz-TznxyKWp0UaO0gr3djUkCVtT1hIWibV00&irgwc=1&utm_campaign=3426829&tab=chat&view=transcript&t=689s) 00:00 Four. That\'s it. You\'re on to Larry. You just sat down this morning. Thank you. 00:06 All right, do we have any witnesses that we can put on the next 10 minutes? Your Honor, we didn\'t. We 00:10 haven\'t taken a morning break. I didn\'t ask you that. Do you have any witnesses? Yes, we can\'t. Yes, of course. You have any tempo. Yes, I do. I\'m prepared. Yes, folks, 00:19 you want to go to lunch early, or you want to hear 10 minutes worth of testimony, why don\'t we do that? Okay? I will, thank you. 00:31 Play some deposition test. 00:56 Treasure so 01:03 All right, we\'d like to play the deposition of Dr Christopher Rogers. Play the whole thing. Well, I start for 10 minutes. We may now swear in the Luis. Do you solve Luis? I\'m please do solemnly state under volunteer grocery that the testimony units matter will be the truth. I do, Doctor, can you please state and spell your name for the 01:34 record? Christopher Rogers, C, H, R, i, s, t, O, P, H, E R R, O, G, E r, s. 01:46 And can you tell us who you\'re currently employed 01:48 by Los Angeles County, 01:52 and what is your title, 01:55 Chief of Forensic Medicine. 01:57 Okay, 02:00 you did the autopsy of Mister George Garcia on May 23 2013 is that correct? Yes. Okay. I\'m going to be asking you some questions about the autopsy, as well as some questions about your opinions regarding the autopsy. What I ask is that if you give us an opinion here today, I ask that you give it to a reasonable degree of medical probability, more likely than not. Can you do that? Yes, okay, some foundational facts that I want to go over. First, we\'ve already established that you did an autopsy of George Garcia on May 23 2013 Correct? Yes, Mister George Garcia had extensive blunt trauma consistent with some vehicular accident of some kind. Correct, yes. 02:53 During your autopsy on May 20, 32,013, 02:58 did you inspect mister George Garcia\'s bladder, 03:02 yes. 03:05 When you did the autopsy of George Garcia on May 23 2013 Did you observe whether there was any urine in Mr. George Garcia\'s bladder? Yes. And what did you find with respect to whether there was urine in Mr. George Garcia\'s bladder, 03:23 there was no urine in there, okay, 03:28 with respect to the condition of Mr. George Garcia\'s bladder. What did you find? 03:37 The bladder was unremarkable. 03:39 And what does that mean? 03:44 It means that there was no evidence of injury or disease, 03:50 no evidence of injury or disease to the bladder, correct? Yes, 03:54 okay, now 03:59 we\'ve established that he sustained, sustained significant trauma. My question to you, is this based on the foundational facts that we\'ve established so far, to a reasonable degree of medical probability? Is it your opinion that Mr. George Garcia\'s bladder was emptied prior to the trauma? Yes. Can you tell us the basis for that opinion, 04:28 the injuries that he sustained were such that he would die very rapidly. So there really wasn\'t time for any change between the time the collision occurred and the time of his death. I would not expect the bladder. To empty after death, because emptying of the bladder is an active process. In other words, the bladder is made out of muscle, and it has to contract in order to empty. I Okay, I\'m going 05:26 to get a little bit more into your opinion, but let me back up for a second and learn a little bit more about you as a physician. 05:34 Can you tell us where you went to medical school? 05:38 The University of California, San Diego and 05:43 after you went to medical school, did you participate in any internship or residency? Yes, and a fellowship as well. Yes. Can 05:52 you tell us about that experience? 05:55 I did residency in anatomic and Clinical Pathology at Los Angeles County USC Medical Center and 06:11 Luis county coroner. 06:13 And are you board certified? Yes. In what boards do you have certifications 06:21 to anatomic and Clinical Pathology and in forensic pathology, 06:28 can you estimate how many autopsies you\'ve performed over the years? 06:35 I would estimate several 1000. Okay, 06:39 I done some research on you prior to today\'s definition. I can\'t help but notice that occasionally LA County assigns you what I would consider high profile autopsies. Is that a fair assessment? Yes. Do you know why that\'s the case? I 07:05 well, I don\'t know for sure, although my suspicion is that no one else is willing to do them. Got it? 07:16 You\'ve done Michael Jackson\'s autopsy? Yes, you did Whitney Houston\'s autopsy, yes. Phil Hartman, the comedian, yes. Okay, so you did Diane COVID dialysis autopsy as well. Correct, yes. Okay, backing up with respect to how an autopsy is done. Can you take us through the process of when the body is received, and what you do first, 07:50 when the body is received, we take a photograph of it as it comes in, and you and then we might do identification procedures such as fingerprinting. The deceased person goes to the refrigerator and the coroner\'s investigator writes a report, 08:26 then the doctor comes and, 08:33 based on The report, 08:37 does either an autopsy or an examination. 08:42 So in 08:44 the case of Jorge Garcia, this was an autopsy. 08:51 During the autopsy, at some point you investigate the deceased person\'s bladder, correct? Yes. How does that come? 09:05 The autopsy is done through a Y shaped incision in the front of the torso, which goes down to the pelvic rim, and so the bladder is usually evident when you first make the incision, and so part of the the autopsy is To examine it just as it is, and then to remove the bladder and open it 09:47 so custom and practice as it was in George Garcia\'s case back in May 2013 is that you would do an incision of the deceased person. His body, and then actually look at the bladder, and then remove the bladder from the body, correct, yes. And then, at what point do you determine whether there\'s urine in the bladder or not? 10:13 I would generally do that before removing it. So in other words, you can make the incision, and make a little incision in the bladder and tell them if there\'s urine inside. 10:31 And is that a visual check, or do you use some sort of syringe? How do you determine whether there\'s urine in the bladder or not? 10:40 So it is a visual check, and 10:44 if there is bladder then, or if there is urine, then we would often collect it by using syringe. In 10:53 other words, in this case, in George Garcia\'s case, you inspected the bladder, you looked visually for urine, and you did not see them correct. And you also check the bladder to see if it was intact, if it was injured, it was abnormal in any way, correct, yeah. And you determined that the bladder was intact, normal and had no urine in it, correct, yes. Now I\'d like to go back. All right, ladies gentlemen, 11:23 we\'re going to take our new recess now. 11:28 Is that about 125 hopefully we\'ll then continue playing the video at 130 please remember my administration call an expert. Oh, you are okay, so we\'ll resume this. We\'ll resume this after Okay, understood. So you\'ll we\'ll call another witness at 130 and then we\'ll resume with the videotape. Please remember my ammunition. Do not talk. You. Testimony of Dr. Rogers Part 2 of 2 (fixed audio) ================================================= Dr. Rogers testified about the autopsy of George Garcia, confirming that his bladder was intact and had no urine, indicating that urination likely occurred before the trauma. He explained that sudden death often retains urine in the bladder. The autopsy report noted no urine in the abdomen and minimal arteriosclerosis. Rogers detailed the autopsy process, supervised by residents, and discussed the findings, including a 400-gram heart and 1250-gram liver. He also compared these findings with those of Jose Garcia, noting differences in organ weights and conditions. Rogers emphasized the importance of thorough documentation and the implications of these findings. Transcript ---------- Outline ------- ### Autopsy Findings and Initial Opinions - Speaker 1 confirms that Dr. Rogers determined that George Garcia\'s bladder was intact, normal, and had no urine. - Dr. Rogers explains that the quick timing between the trauma and death makes it unlikely that urine would have leaked out. - Dr. Rogers mentions that sudden death often results in urine remaining in the bladder during autopsy. - Speaker 1 asks about the average urine production rate, and Dr. Rogers estimates 200-300 ccs of urine in the bladder. ### Autopsy Report Process and Findings - Dr. Rogers describes the process of creating an autopsy report, including supervision by a resident and reviewing the report with the resident. - The autopsy report for George Garcia is verified as being created on May 23, 2013. - Dr. Rogers explains that the bladder was intact, and there was no evidence of urine expulsion due to trauma. - Speaker 1 asks about the possibility of urine expulsion due to bladder damage, and Dr. Rogers confirms that such damage would be evident. ### Hypothetical Scenarios and Opinions - Speaker 1 presents three hypothetical scenarios: urine expulsion due to trauma, urine expulsion before death, and urination before death. - Dr. Rogers states that it is more likely that George Garcia urinated before his death. - Dr. Rogers discusses the possibility of urine expulsion due to torn ureters, but finds this unlikely. - The conversation touches on the possibility of urine leakage from the bladder due to a hole where the ureters were attached. ### Discussion on Bladder and Ureter Injuries - Dr. Rogers explains that the bladder is relatively protected by the pelvis and is unlikely to be damaged by trauma. - The conversation shifts to Jose Garcia\'s autopsy, with Dr. Rogers confirming that Dr. Lasky performed the autopsy. - Dr. Rogers discusses the findings of coronary heart arterial sclerosis in Jose Garcia and the typical age range for such conditions. - The conversation includes a discussion on the weight of the heart and liver in both George and Jose Garcia. ### Further Autopsy Details and Findings - Dr. Rogers confirms the presence of arterial sclerosis in George Garcia and discusses the typical range for such conditions. - The conversation includes a discussion on the weight of the kidneys and liver in both George and Jose Garcia. - Dr. Rogers explains the significance of the liver weight and consistency in Jose Garcia, suggesting ongoing damage. - The conversation touches on the possibility of a fatty liver, with Dr. Rogers noting that the report does not explicitly state this. ### Final Clarifications and Wrap-Up - Dr. Rogers confirms the details of the autopsy report, including the time of injury and death for George Garcia. - The conversation includes a discussion on the weight and size of the kidneys in both George and Jose Garcia. - Dr. Rogers explains the significance of the liver weight and consistency in Jose Garcia, suggesting ongoing damage. - The conversation concludes with a final review of the autopsy findings and the significance of the reported conditions. Keywords -------- bladder intact, sudden death, urine expulsion, autopsy report, trauma injury, forensic pathology, urinary leakage, kidney damage, ureter attachment, fatty liver, heart weight, coronary arteries, liver enlargement, arterial sclerosis, toxicology specimens Speakers -------- Speaker 1 (36%), Speaker 2 (28%), Speaker 3 (18%), Speaker 4 (15%), Speaker 5 (2%), Speaker 6 (1%), Speaker 7 (0%) 0:07 C5, 36714, the parties and council are present. The jury and ![](media/image1.png) 0:10 the alternates are present. 1 Speaker 1 0:13 We\'re going to continue with the taking of testimony this afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen. So Mr. Barto zeri, 0:18 call your next witness. I\'m going to continue playing. Dr Rogers, Your Honor. Great. Thank you. Back in May, we ![](media/image1.png) 0:29 left off right here, 2 Speaker 2 0:30 the bladder to see if it was intact, if it was injured, it was abnormal in any way, correct, yes, and you determined that the bladder was intact, normal and had no memory, correct? Yes. Now I\'d like to go back to your opinion that more likely than not to a reasonable degree of medical probability, Mr. George Garcia\'s bladder was emptied prior to the trauma he sustained. You recall saying that, yeah, okay, one of the things that you mentioned is this, the idea that one of the reasons for that opinion is that the Mr. George Garcia\'s death happened so quickly. In other words, you would not expect a urine to leak out because the event happened so quickly. Can you expand on that a little 1:35 bit? Well, 3 Speaker 3 1:41 the death happened so quickly after the injury that I don\'t I don\'t think you would have time to go to the bathroom. ![](media/image1.png) 1:55 In other words, 2 Speaker 2 1:57 the trauma happened and the death happened very close in time together, yes. And so you\'re saying you would not expect to see him urinate after the trauma before the death? Correct? Yes, generally, and I happen to look at the autopsy reports of the people that we mentioned, Michael Jackson with Houston, Don Cornelius, Phil Hartman, they all had urine in their bladder once you did the autopsy. Is that generally something that you notice when you do an autopsy that there\'s generally urine in the bladder? 3 Speaker 3 2:36 Well there, I guess it depends on the situation. I mean, more, more often than not. If death is sudden there, there\'s likely to be urine in the bladder. 2 Speaker 2 2:49 Got it so in the circumstances where death is sudden, it\'s more likely than not that the person, the deceased person, if they had urine in their bladder when they died, they will still have urine in their bladder upon autopsy. Fair excuse. Do you have any idea how much on average, in a general sense, the average healthy human male produces of urine in their bladder, say, every hour. I 3:25 Yeah, well, I don\'t know what that number would be. 3 Speaker 3 3:31 I know that at autopsy, it\'s not unusual to find perhaps 200 or 300 ccs of urine. In the bladder. ![](media/image1.png) 3:46 But I\'m not sure whether the person produced it 2 Speaker 2 3:53 that you have in front of you. Can you verify that\'s the autopsy report that you created for George Garcia on May 23 2013 i 4:39 Yes, okay, 2 Speaker 2 4:43 the report, the autopsy report. Can you take me through how you create one of those reports is it\'s like, do you dictate things? Do you write stuff down? Do you have an assistant? Can you take us through that 3 Speaker 3 4:57 process so the. Autopsy of Jorge Garcia, a resident did the autopsy under my supervision, ![](media/image1.png) 5:12 so I would 3 Speaker 3 5:16 review the investigators information and talk to the resident before the autopsy. And then if they need anything special during the autopsy, they can call and then after the autopsy, I go through each organ and each injury, and each injury 5:43 with them determined cause of doubt. The ![](media/image1.png) 5:50 resident writes 3 Speaker 3 5:57 the report done in Exhibit two, which is form protocol that has a lot of things filled in, and then resident just writes on it, and then I review this with the resident and sign it okay. 2 Speaker 2 6:16 And then is it maintained on some sort of database or computer? 6:19 Yes, okay. Now 2 Speaker 2 6:28 going back to your opinion. Your opinion is that more likely than not to a reasonable degree of medical probability, Mr. George Garcia\'s bladder was emptied prior to the trauma he sustained? Correct? Yes. And if we could group two of the reasons or two of the basis for your opinion, one would be that his bladder was intact. Correct? Yeah, if his bladder was squeezed as a result of the trauma to the point where that forced urine to expel, would you expect to see damage on his body? ![](media/image1.png) 7:06 Yes, I would. 4 Speaker 4 7:10 Well, I think it\'s more likely, if it were inferred in that way, that there would be a hole in the bladder in the abdomen, and the urine would go into the abdomen, okay? And did 2 Speaker 2 7:23 you find any urine in the abdomen? No, okay. And the other reason is that, in other words, it wasn\'t as if the trauma occurred and then the urine expelled and then he died. And the reason for that opinion, or the basis for that opinion, is that the trauma to death occurred in a very short period of time. Yes, Okay, any other basis for your opinion that we haven\'t discussed so far? No, I 2 Speaker 2 8:25 as a general principle of forensic pathology, does urine mysteriously and spontaneously leak out of the bladder in a sudden, traumatic death like this? Would 8:40 not expect that 2 Speaker 2 8:44 again. So I\'m going to present to you three hypothetical opinions, and I would ask that you withdraw. I\'m going to ask you about three hypothetical scenarios, and I would ask that you give me your opinion more likely than not to a reasonable degree of medical probability, which is more likely? Okay, yes, the first scenario that I\'ll ask you about is that Mr. George Garcia\'s bladder, when he got that the urine expelled from this bladder. That\'s scenario number one. Okay, 3 Speaker 3 9:23 if I could clarify, would mean expelled in the usual way of current Yes, yes, 2 Speaker 2 9:29 or expelled because of a hole in the bladder or as a result of an injury. For some reason, this could also be expelled into the afternoon, 5 Speaker 5 9:38 correct? Or it could be expelled from the urine, which is another, right? 2 Speaker 2 9:42 Let me say it this way. The first hypothetical scenario is that the urine spelled out of the bladder as a result of being squeezed. Okay, that\'s the first thing. The second scenario is that, and we\'re talking about George Mercier. That the urine was expelled sometime after the trauma and sometime before his death. Okay, so again, the results of the trauma caused the urine to expel. And the third scenario is that Mr. George Garcia urinated before his death. Okay, in your opinion, more likely than us to a reasonable degree of medical probability. Which one of those scenarios is 3 Speaker 3 10:26 most likely, the third and 2 Speaker 2 10:29 the third being that he urinated before his death? Yes. Did you see ![](media/image1.png) 10:33 any signs in The autopsy report of your damage? I 3 Speaker 3 11:07 Well, I\'m looking here on the first page of the autopsy report, 11:15 Item c2 3 Speaker 3 11:21 it says avulsions of various things and bilateral kidneys. Now it doesn\'t, it doesn\'t say, literally, ureters, but the implication is that the kidneys got torn off. ![](media/image1.png) 11:43 So if the kidneys got 5 Speaker 5 11:44 torn off, you would expect the ureter to become free 3 Speaker 3 11:48 in that situation, correct? If they were completely torn off, yes. Okay, 5 Speaker 5 11:53 and so on the kidney side of the ureter that was separated, how about on the bladder side of the urinary Do 12:01 you know if that was separated here or not? 3 Speaker 3 12:04 Well, I have only the way it\'s described here, which is not terribly 5 Speaker 5 12:12 detailed. So another potential for the urinary loss would be urine that had worked its way into ureter andor urine that was in the bladder that escaped where the ureters were attached to bladder. 3 Speaker 3 12:30 I think that\'s unlikely. And the reason is that where the ureter enters the bladder, there\'s sort of a one way valve. In other words, the urine is not supposed to go back up to the kidney. 5 Speaker 5 12:46 In terms of the the ureter here, if the ureter is not attached to the bladder, that would have that would present a hole, would it not to the bladder? Yes, and a means of escape of urine, correct, yes. I mean, gravity will cause urine to even leak out of a bladder of a dead person. Correct, ![](media/image1.png) 13:17 there\'s hole. Yes, okay, and 5 Speaker 5 13:19 that\'s that testimony that there are, there can be a hole in the bladder 13:26 where the ureter was 5 Speaker 5 13:27 attached, is that could be a source of leakage that is by a reasonable medical probability, correct? Yes, okay, and you have no way of knowing one way or the other from this autopsy report of George Garcia whether such condition existed or did not exist, correct, 3 Speaker 3 13:49 based on the autopsy report, I would say the condition did not exist, and The reason I say that is on page 12, the report says the urinary bladder is unremarkable. So in other words, having a hole in it would be, would be remarkable. 5 Speaker 5 14:11 Well, having your jurors that would not be attached to it, do you, by the way, remember what this body looked like when it came in? I didn\'t remember if I represented to you that there was bowel extruded from the body that would be pretty consistent with someone that was run over the torso by a truck, right? Yes, okay, and so it\'s a bit of a mess there, so unless the autopsy surgeon did an there\'s no way you can tell from this autopsy report as the condition of the ureters Correct. 3 Speaker 3 14:49 Well, I can only tell you what the what the report says, and it well, it says the ureters are. The dilatation or obstruction and pursue their normal course. That\'s what it says about them. ![](media/image1.png) 15:06 Documentation of injury to the 15:13 spleen, correct. ![](media/image1.png) 15:19 Yes to the liver, correct, 15:26 yes ![](media/image1.png) 15:28 to there\'s documentation of injury to the kidney, yes, 2 Speaker 2 15:34 there\'s documentation of injury to the pelvic bones. Correct. I 2 Speaker 2 15:54 Yes, and based on your custom and practice, if there had been injury to the bladder, would that have been documented on George Garcia\'s autopsy report? Yes, 5 Speaker 5 16:10 if this guy had an explain is in half, his liver is damaged, his kidneys are damaged. You can\'t even see his testy. You can\'t even identify them. 16:23 So 5 Speaker 5 16:25 how is the mechanism for the bladder? So that the bladder stays in place. When you have a broken fracture of the pelvis, you have a fracture of the pelvis. Do you believe that the bladder somehow was free, or was growing free in the outward and one. 3 Speaker 3 16:43 I don\'t think that was true, but the bladder is a relatively protected organ because it has the pelvis around it. So in other words, if something is going to, you know, like some force is applied to that area that the pelvis breaks, but the bladder doesn\'t necessarily break. 5 Speaker 5 17:05 With reference to the Jose Garcia autopsy you were also that was also done by Dr Chang correct, 3 Speaker 3 17:13 No, the President on this case was Dr Lasky, L, A, S, k, y, ![](media/image1.png) 17:21 first name, 17:25 band, B, A, I, a, ![](media/image1.png) 17:30 and Dr Lasky. Do 17:31 you know where Dr Lasky is now? ![](media/image1.png) 17:34 I know. Okay, you signed 17:37 off on the Jose Garcia 5 Speaker 5 17:40 autopsy report. Is that correct? Yes, okay. And again, it\'s of a similar nature. Dr Lasky actually did the the autopsy. You ![](media/image1.png) 17:53 looked it over, went over with Dr Lasky, 5 Speaker 5 17:55 and made sure that Dr Lasky had performed the autopsy correctly, correct? Yes. And you know dr Lasky was similar to Dr Chang finishing up a one year forensic pathology residency. 3 Speaker 3 18:14 Well, I think that Dr Lasky was also in an anatomic and Clinical Pathology residency and doing her required month of forensic pathology. 5 Speaker 5 18:31 So let\'s go over Jose. Jose was listed as five feet eight inches tall. Is that correct? 5 Speaker 5 18:42 I Yes, yes. And he weighed 197 18:47 pounds. That\'s correct. ![](media/image1.png) 18:48 And he was 18:50 25 years old, correct? ![](media/image1.png) 18:51 Yes. Now 18:55 he was found to have coronary heart arterial ![](media/image1.png) 18:58 sclerosis. Is that correct? 5 Speaker 5 19:03 Yes. Now, this is a, is this an the extent of the arterial sclerosis that was found on this body? Was that 19:11 an unusual amount for a 25 year old to have? 3 Speaker 3 19:17 Well, it\'s, it\'s a little greater than average. But, ![](media/image1.png) 19:22 but not terribly unusual. 19:24 Okay, 5 Speaker 5 19:26 and do you teach your residents that they have to be careful taking that measurement along the lines of, I think there\'s an article that came out some years ago that talked about how there might be a difference in autopsy measuring of Coronavirus occlusion, as opposed to a live measurement, is ![](media/image1.png) 19:46 that something you teach to residents, 3 Speaker 3 19:49 I don\'t specifically teach them that but, but I am aware that there can be a difference between the the. 20:00 The measurement of autopsy and the measurement, ![](media/image1.png) 20:07 just to glitch your arm, 1 Speaker 1 20:08 there\'s a lot of data, but it returns, I think it has 400 grams. 20:15 Is that unusual? That\'s on page, ![](media/image1.png) 20:20 that\'s on the form 16, 20:21 PPS, eight. Oh, 16. ![](media/image1.png) 20:31 Okay, so form 16, 20:34 that is at the upper limit of normal 2 Speaker 2 20:38 discussing this liver issue ![](media/image1.png) 20:45 on page 11 at the bottom, 2 Speaker 2 20:49 more likely than not to a reasonable degree of medical probability, if Mr. Jose Garcia had a fatty liver at the time of the autopsy, would that have been noted down there? Yes, and it was noted that it was not fatty, but rather smooth, correct? Yes, that\'s all we have. Your Honor. Rogers, our part, I 1 Speaker 1 21:15 think they\'re going to play some quips from their part is that, what are you going to do? 21:19 I City Light, ![](media/image1.png) 21:26 kind of dim. Thanks. 21:40 Me, should I do Something? Couldn\'t help it. 2 Speaker 2 22:48 Yes, can you estimate how long we spoke prior to today\'s competition? 3 Speaker 3 22:57 At our last meeting? I think it was about 15 minutes. Okay? Do minutes, ![](media/image1.png) 23:02 okay, during that meeting, 2 Speaker 2 23:05 did I ask you any questions or give you any information that we haven\'t covered in today\'s deposition thus far? No, 3 Speaker 3 23:20 I think we may have discussed the general context of the case. I 5 Speaker 5 23:33 want to ask you some questions about George Garcia, and then I\'ll have some questions later, as we\'ll counsel with reference to Jose Garcia, but with reference to George Garcia. This was an autopsy that was done by your residents. That Correct? Yes. What was the residence name? 23:58 The resident was Sue Chang ![](media/image1.png) 24:02 C, H, A, N, G, yes, 24:04 you know where Dr Chang is now. 3 Speaker 3 24:13 Well, this was done in 2013 I would imagine if she\'s probably in practice somewhere. ![](media/image1.png) 24:19 Sure. Okay, so 5 Speaker 5 24:21 what happened is all the writing designs in it too is except that the signature is writing done by 24:29 Dr Chang Correct. 3 Speaker 3 24:33 Well, let me identify the pieces that I did on the first page of the autopsy report, the cause of death, multiple traumatic injuries. That\'s you Yes, and on page 17 of the autopsy report, under opinion the. 5 Speaker 5 25:04 Okay, and they did mean to imply that everything was written by Dr Chang. There\'s some stuff in here, also that was written by ![](media/image1.png) 25:11 the investigator, Coronavirus investigator, 25:17 Ruby Milano, I believe Ruby Milano. It\'s O M, O L, A, M, L, 3 Speaker 3 25:30 yes. There is some material written by Rudy Milano. ![](media/image1.png) 25:37 There is also 25:41 a toxicology report that ![](media/image1.png) 25:44 comes from the laboratory, 5 Speaker 5 25:48 but with reference to the autopsy that, with the exception of pages one and 17, the writing is Dr Chang\'s Correct, yes. Okay. Now with with reference to the the bladder. What is a CC in relation to a military 26:09 it\'s roughly the same. Okay? 5 Speaker 5 26:12 So when you change, when you train a resident, such as Dr Chang, do you train her to look at the bladder and see if it\'s bone dry. Or do you ask her? I mean, when a bladder, as indicated on page 12 of this report, is empty, what does that mean? ![](media/image1.png) 26:36 Well, it would mean that 3 Speaker 3 26:40 either there\'s nothing in there or there\'s so little that we really can\'t get it into The syringe. 26:56 Now, if 5 Speaker 5 26:59 there it is. It is 10 milliliters, something you can get into a syringe. Yes, okay. Now, in terms of the by the way, Dr Frank sherrider, yes. He\'s the former Medical Examiner, chief medical examiner in Santa Nino County, correct? Yes. ![](media/image1.png) 27:18 Is he a friend? 27:19 Yes. Good pathologist. ![](media/image1.png) 27:26 Well, you know, I 3 Speaker 3 27:29 I\'ve never actually been through his, his pathology reports, but I have known him for some time. 5 Speaker 5 27:37 Did you ever train with him? Yes, did he train you No? Did you train him? No? Just train together. 3 Speaker 3 27:47 Well, he has, at the time that I did anatomic and Clinical Pathology residency, he was doing neuropathology fellowship at County USC, 5 Speaker 5 28:02 now with reference to the autopsy by Dr Chang. Did you? Did you actually see the bladder itself? Yes, so you actually looked at the bladder and saw that there was no urine? Correct? 3 Speaker 3 28:18 Well, I, I don\'t recall this specific case, but that is my usual practice. So in other words, I would be present when the initial incision is made, and the first thing that I would be interested in is toxicology specimens. Okay, 5 Speaker 5 28:39 so you\'re talking about toxicology specimens. You\'re talking about blood and urine, correct well, 28:46 and other specimens, depending 5 Speaker 5 28:48 on the case. Okay, so although you have no recollection in this case, being part of George Garcia\'s autopsy, normally you would expect to observe the taking of specimens by the resident, correct? Yes, as of May 2320 6 Speaker 6 29:09 13, was Susan Chang, or Sue Chang? ![](media/image1.png) 29:13 Was she completing a residency? If you know. 3 Speaker 3 29:20 Well, I don\'t know, in this specific case, usually the residents that come through our office are either third or fourth year residents, or they\'re toward the end of presidency. 29:39 Okay, so 5 Speaker 5 29:42 I guess what I\'m trying to find out is, normally, you\'d expect them to start the residency in, say, July sometime, and then complete it ![](media/image1.png) 29:49 in June. 5 Speaker 5 29:50 Yes. Okay, so if, depending upon 29:56 the SU Chang, would have been 5 Speaker 5 29:58 someone who had been under. Your supervision for almost an 4 Speaker 4 30:02 entire year, correct? Well, no. 3 Speaker 3 30:06 Su Chang was doing an anatomic and Clinical Pathology residency, and one of the requirements is to do forensic pathology cases or whatnot. So I would expect that she started at about the beginning of May, and she was close to finishing her forensic pathology. Can 5 Speaker 5 30:35 you tell me, during that 23 day period of time, approximately how many autopsies ![](media/image1.png) 30:40 you overlooked part 5 Speaker 5 30:46 of the wrong word, that you oversaw, that you managed that suit chain. Did you 30:52 give me a rough estimate? Well, 3 Speaker 3 31:01 my best estimate might be as much as four or five, something like that, four or five total autopsy. ![](media/image1.png) 31:11 Now in terms of the i 31:27 Let me ask you, ![](media/image1.png) 31:29 the form 20 31:30 that\'s attached to the autopsy, ![](media/image1.png) 31:32 that\'s a figure of a person that 5 Speaker 5 31:36 is designed to show the injuries on the rough outline of the person, correct, yes. And does this 31:44 form 20? Does it and the writing ![](media/image1.png) 31:47 on that is Dr James correct, 31:50 except for the signature, but yes, okay. 5 Speaker 5 31:53 And are there any indications on the form 20, of any fractures on the length of Mr. Jorge Garcia, ![](media/image1.png) 32:10 no. 32:10 And if we go to ![](media/image1.png) 32:14 form 27 5 Speaker 5 32:17 that\'s the form that\'s used to actually show the fractures, correct, yes. 6 Speaker 6 32:21 Are there any indications on form? 27 many fractures to the legs 5 Speaker 5 32:26 of Mr. George Garcia, no. And there are fractures of the skull, the sternum, the ribs, multiple fractures the pelvis. There\'s a c3 in the neck transaction and c8 transaction. Is that correct? 3 Speaker 3 32:44 A t8 Yes. So, 32:47 I mean, he got pretty smashed. Did he not 5 Speaker 5 32:49 hitch? Okay? So a truck, a big rig truck, ran over his torso. Correct? 3 Speaker 3 32:58 Well, I would have to rely on the history that\'s given to me, but it is, his injuries are consistent with something big running over 5 Speaker 5 33:09 him, okay, but the injuries are not consistent ![](media/image1.png) 33:13 with something big running over his legs. Correct? No, 33:18 I am correct, yes, ![](media/image1.png) 33:20 okay, because you would expect to see some 5 Speaker 5 33:22 fractures if something big rolled over his legs. Correct? Yes, okay, so all right now with reference to just some basic information on George Garcia, as I understand it was five feet, seven inches tall. Is that your understanding? Yes, and 193 pounds, yes, and 61 years of age when you pass correct yes, now his heart, how much did his heart work? 34:00 And point out the page you\'re on, if you don\'t mind. Thomas, 3 Speaker 3 34:09 okay, I\'m on page eight of the autopsy report, and the heart weight is 280 grams. ![](media/image1.png) 34:19 How is that done? Is 5 Speaker 5 34:20 that is the heart taken out of the body and put on the scale, hitch, and then just read the number and write it down. Correct itch. Okay, so 280 grams. Is that a normal weight itch? Okay. And is liver? How much is liver with I think that\'s on page 11. 34:42 Is liver weighed 1250 ![](media/image1.png) 34:47 grams. 5 Speaker 5 34:50 And is that a normal way for a liver? Yes, and that weight is also gained by you take the liver out and you simply put it on the scale, correct? So. That\'s 35:00 correct. Okay, 5 Speaker 5 35:08 back on page nine, if I get to go back, was there on this 61 year old man? Was there arterial sclerosis? ![](media/image1.png) 35:19 Yes. 5 Speaker 5 35:19 Can you describe the amount of the arterial sclerosis for 35:32 when I\'m referring to page eight, 3 Speaker 3 35:36 the report describes the arterial sclerosis in the aorta has lived its streaking, so that\'s not very much arteriosclerosis. And then on page nine, it says there is minimal atherosclerosis of the coronary arteries with 20% narrow ![](media/image1.png) 36:11 and that includes the 36:13 the left descending coronary 5 Speaker 5 36:16 artery and the right coronary artery. Yes, now on page 12, there\'s a discussion of George Garcia\'s kidney size. And can you just tell us what the kidney size is for ![](media/image1.png) 36:32 George Garcia? 36:35 The left kidney is 150 ![](media/image1.png) 36:39 grams, and the right kidney is 125 5 Speaker 5 36:43 is that normal size? Yes. And it also says the left kidney is in two pieces. Does not or is that a reference to both the left and right kidney? So that makes sense. 3 Speaker 3 37:00 Well, I would read this to say that the left kidney is in two pieces and the right kidney is not in two pieces. 5 Speaker 5 37:09 So that\'s kind of how I read it. So I was trying to go on the same page, so there was sufficient force to the kidney, at least on the left kidney, 37:19 that it was ![](media/image1.png) 37:21 rented into two pieces. Correct? 37:25 Yes, okay. And we don\'t know exactly 5 Speaker 5 37:27 how the ureter, if the ureter stayed a tax there one way or the other. Correct, that\'s correct. Okay. ![](media/image1.png) 37:35 With reference to the 5 Speaker 5 37:39 the amount of the arterial sclerosis, we have a finding by Dr Lasky, approved by you, of the anterior descending branch of the left coronary artery being 50% 3 Speaker 3 37:51 occlusion. Is that correct? Yes. Now 5 Speaker 5 37:54 on page nine, where you say that the occlusion you have in the middle of the page, you can write down that there\'s a narrowing, or you can write down the stenosis, but you write the word or Dr Lasky wrote the word occlusion. What is occlusion? Well, 3 Speaker 3 38:16 in this case, I think the term occlusion means partial obstruction. So, so the entire artery was not obstructed, but 38:30 a portion of it was 5 Speaker 5 38:32 okay, and the estimate by Dr Lasky is 50% correct, yes. Okay, now you didn\'t see that left ascending coronary artery, correct? 4 Speaker 4 38:44 I probably did. I mean, I do routinely look at the coronary arteries after they\'ve been dissected. Okay, 5 Speaker 5 38:50 so would you have joined with Dr Lasky on that estimate of 50% yes, okay, and then the right coronary artery you\'ve got a 20% occlusion, correct? Yes, is that ![](media/image1.png) 39:05 cardiomyopathy? 3 Speaker 3 39:13 Well, that\'s one reason why you can have a heavier heart. Another reason, for example, is that he may have had high blood pressure causing heart, 5 Speaker 5 39:29 okay, but this 400 milligram, or excuse me, a 400 gram heart is an unusual finding for a 25 year old male, yes, okay. The yet listed, I think, on this on top to report, at least in the by the corner investigator, but the time of death was 8:47am, 40:00 Is that your understanding? ![](media/image1.png) 40:09 Well, I\'m looking here at 4 Speaker 4 40:11 the form headed case report with the one in the upper left hand corner. I 40:26 What time is that? 3 Speaker 3 40:29 Well, this is that the time of injury is 8:47am, ![](media/image1.png) 40:37 and the time of death is 9:15am, 5 Speaker 5 40:42 so the time of the injury is 847, but whoever pronounced the death didn\'t do so until 915 Yes. Okay, so 40:51 in terms of 5 Speaker 5 40:53 the Coronavirus investigative narrative, when it refers to the accident of approximately 847, hours, that would be the time or the approximate injury that resulted in the death that was proclaimed later at 915 right? Yes, okay. ![](media/image1.png) 41:18 In terms of the 5 Speaker 5 41:21 talk for a minute about the kidney size of the Jose 41:29 Garcia, this 25 year old man, 5 Speaker 5 41:33 his left kidney was 180 grams. Is that correct? Now? That is, that\'s much that\'s larger than the left kidney on George Garcia, a much older man, correct. Yes. And ![](media/image1.png) 41:46 what does that signify to you? 41:52 Well, I 3 Speaker 3 41:55 wouldn\'t attach any great significance to it. I mean, there is some variation in the size of pupils organs, even if we\'re the same size people 5 Speaker 5 42:11 in terms of the right kidney we\'ve got for Jose 160 brands. 4 Speaker 4 42:16 Is that correct? Yes, and 5 Speaker 5 42:19 that is in contrast to ![](media/image1.png) 42:23 George Garcia\'s, whose 4 Speaker 4 42:25 right kidney was 125 grams correct hitch, 42:30 the liver for Jose Garcia weighed 5 Speaker 5 42:33 2050, grams, 2050, grams correct hitch, and it was listed on page 11 as being enlarged, tan, brown ![](media/image1.png) 42:44 in color correct, yes. And 42:47 so the finding of a liver being ![](media/image1.png) 42:49 enlarged. What does that signify to you? 3 Speaker 3 42:55 Well, in in this specific case, the consistency of the liver is also described as firm, which is not normal. So we have a liver that is large, kind of an unusual color and firm, that would suggest that there was some kind of ongoing 43:21 damage to the liver. 5 Speaker 5 43:24 Now, in terms of the ongoing damage of the liver, would it? Would it be fair to say that George Garcia had a fatty liver? 5 Speaker 5 43:41 I just said George and I apologize. I withdraw that. ![](media/image1.png) 43:45 I\'m sorry. I 43:46 apologize. Would it be fair to say that at 2050, grams, 5 Speaker 5 43:49 that Jose Garcia, with his firm, unusual color to the to the liver, had what\'s called it a fatty liver. That\'s Jose Garcia. 3 Speaker 3 44:05 Well, that\'s, that\'s the implication. Now, the only thing ![](media/image1.png) 44:11 there is a, 3 Speaker 3 44:13 there is a box, which is the last line on page 11. And you have the opportunity to say the cut surface is fatty, but the report doesn\'t say that. It says it\'s smooth. Okay, 44:31 so the 5 Speaker 5 44:34 they\'re talking about in that they\'re talking about the actual incision that\'s made on the liver. Is that correct? Yes. Okay, so while you may have a fatty liver, the incision may be a smooth incision, correct? 3 Speaker 3 44:50 Well, I guess there are different degrees of fattiness, also slightly fatty liver versus a very fatty liver, or something like that. Sure. So.

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